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russian armor

Why schreck still cost 90 ammo?

2 Sep 2016, 13:10 PM
#21
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6



Obers are 400 mp, I really dont see how people can use such an expensive squad for tank hunting/ AT gun screening.


That's exactly another problem. 400mp is far too much. 360mp would be reasonable since they have better received accuracy bonuses than PGren's.

This is how I have changed Obersoldaten in my mod that I've been working on.

"Obersoldaten
Moved from Panzer Headquarters to Battlegroup HQ
Can be equipped with double Panzer Shreks for 120 Munitions. Incompatible with other upgrades
Manpower cost decreased from 400mp to 360.
Kar98k Rifle accuracy reduced by 10%
Reinforcement time reduced from 12.5 to 9.5
MG34 upgrade replaced with Infrared STG’s. Requires Panzer Headquarters
IR STG’s now cost 90munitions
Received accuracy nerfed from 0.7 to 0.8
This is to balance out the squads price reduction and fact they come earlier
IR STG’s cover ignore bonus removed
"
2 Sep 2016, 14:31 PM
#22
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770



That moment when his "tale" isn't actually bull shit.

So don't call others out and saying they're bullshitting or lying when you don't know actually know yourself.


Im from beta and i cannot remember your so called balance issue. The only light vehicles that existed was the m3 and nothing else because of the callin meta. you didn't use shreks to counter the m3 especially since the m3 was usually the rather common sniper+m3 combo and could nail your shrek squad with simple kiting.

i thought that the double shrek upgrade was added for easy use.
2 Sep 2016, 14:32 PM
#23
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770



That's exactly another problem. 400mp is far too much. 360mp would be reasonable since they have better received accuracy bonuses than PGren's.

This is how I have changed Obersoldaten in my mod that I've been working on.

"Obersoldaten
Moved from Panzer Headquarters to Battlegroup HQ
Can be equipped with double Panzer Shreks for 120 Munitions. Incompatible with other upgrades
Manpower cost decreased from 400mp to 360.
Kar98k Rifle accuracy reduced by 10%
Reinforcement time reduced from 12.5 to 9.5
MG34 upgrade replaced with Infrared STG’s. Requires Panzer Headquarters
IR STG’s now cost 90munitions
Received accuracy nerfed from 0.7 to 0.8
This is to balance out the squads price reduction and fact they come earlier
IR STG’s cover ignore bonus removed
"


But was the role of the volks then?
2 Sep 2016, 15:00 PM
#24
avatar of Immoraliste

Posts: 50

Give SP double shreks or cheaper shreks and you can guarantee that games for 90% of the player base will descend to shrekblobs.

Handheld guided-missile AT that has higher pen and damage than medium tanks, and pens almost every allied vehicle every shot. Can't we just have adequate AT guns for every faction?
2 Sep 2016, 15:41 PM
#25
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 401

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2016, 14:32 PMZyllen


But was the role of the volks then?


I made a suggestion not much of a while back that had the same idea of moving Obers to Medic HQ and made them being able to equip double Schrecks: https://www.coh2.org/topic/55881/idea-okw-the-second-ostheer 

However, at the same time, I also suggested giving Volks a long-range AI weapon (for example: LMG 42) so they are more like a excel-at-long-range mainline infantry (quite similar to Ost's Grenadier) while Sturmpioneer being the CQC unit when you need.‎
2 Sep 2016, 16:32 PM
#26
avatar of Wygrif

Posts: 278




Blizzards still exist in custom games but I doubt that more than a handful of people plays with blizzards enabled.
Relic just doesn't remove them completely because of their pride. Coldtech was one of the most praised features before the game's release and then nobody liked it.



Blizzards were a good idea that got a dumb, gimmicky implementation. It felt like every five minutes you'd end up pausing the game because the benefits of going out in the storm weren't really on par with the costs. If blizzards had been longer, and units were less vulnerable to cold death I think the rewards could have been brought in line.

It also seemed like Relic didn't think much about how the maps were interacting with them.
2 Sep 2016, 17:00 PM
#27
avatar of Fino

Posts: 191


Relic just doesn't remove them completely because of their pride.


Hopefully also because it makes no sense to remove it.Its already an optional mechanic,away from ranked modes.Let people who enjoy it use it.
2 Sep 2016, 18:24 PM
#28
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Give SP double shreks or cheaper shreks and you can guarantee that games for 90% of the player base will descend to shrekblobs.

Handheld guided-missile AT that has higher pen and damage than medium tanks, and pens almost every allied vehicle every shot. Can't we just have adequate AT guns for every faction?
Infact pg blob is a thing right ?
2 Sep 2016, 18:30 PM
#29
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2016, 14:31 PMZyllen


Im from beta and i cannot remember your so called balance issue. The only light vehicles that existed was the m3 and nothing else because of the callin meta. you didn't use shreks to counter the m3 especially since the m3 was usually the rather common sniper+m3 combo and could nail your shrek squad with simple kiting.

i thought that the double shrek upgrade was added for easy use.


The fact that you don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you don't know why pgrens were changed that way then don't say people who know are wrong.

There is no ease of use increase between buying one shreck when you have 60 muni, then another one when you have 60 muni again and waiting ages to get 120 muni, which was a fortune for ostheer back then. It was a straight nerf and it had its reasoning.

You also cant disagree with the fact that 3stgs + shreck is an absolute anti-everything doom machine and 2shrecks + 2stgs is unable to fight infantry at all. Especially as shrecks change models when they die, turning your AI off first.
2 Sep 2016, 19:21 PM
#30
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



You also cant disagree with the fact that 3stgs + shreck is an absolute anti-everything doom machine and 2shrecks + 2stgs is unable to fight infantry at all. Especially as shrecks change models when they die, turning your AI off first.


Like bar with zook combo on riflemen with the ability to smoke and frag nade?
2 Sep 2016, 20:04 PM
#31
avatar of DAZ187

Posts: 466

allow SPios to be able to upgrade a shrek and minesweeper.
nee
2 Sep 2016, 20:53 PM
#32
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

Given how Sturms are expensive and take long time to produce and reinforce, AND using them as AT infantry means they aren't repairing or building, reducing the cost would be justified.

The other idea would be to give to Obers, but that's hardly a solution since you're giving it from one expensive infantry squad to another, and one that comes at T4. The closest to a good solution would be that they come with Panzerschreck- that way you got a tier that lets you spawn AT infantry for manpower, or medium tanks for fuel.

Or just give it back to Volks, though with their StG upgrade and panzerfaust that's going to need to undo so many changes to Volks.

Of course the best solution is actually just simply fix Rak43. The only reason we have a thread on this is because the other T0 AT option is shit so people are looking to other units to compensate. Lelic logic.
2 Sep 2016, 21:01 PM
#33
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1



Like bar with zook combo on riflemen with the ability to smoke and frag nade?


USF forces are tagged as a versatile and that loadout gimps them hard, you want 2 Bazookas or none, specially not on your Rifles that will need their BARs to fight infantry later on.
2 Sep 2016, 21:24 PM
#34
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



USF forces are tagged as a versatile and that loadout gimps them hard, you want 2 Bazookas or none, specially not on your Rifles that will need their BARs to fight infantry later on.


So two riflemen squads with double bars, one with double zooks, nice tactical command blobby group to destroy everything.
2 Sep 2016, 21:37 PM
#35
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Like bar with zook combo on riflemen with the ability to smoke and frag nade?


People tend to go for no more than 4 Rifles. That's only 4 zooks which perform as 2 schrecks or even worst. Individually mediocre AT and good but not amazing AI (single bar is a so so upgrade on AI).

IF you want zooks, put them on RET not on Rifles.
2 Sep 2016, 22:22 PM
#36
avatar of PanzerErotica

Posts: 135



I made a suggestion not much of a while back that had the same idea of moving Obers to Medic HQ and made them being able to equip double Schrecks: https://www.coh2.org/topic/55881/idea-okw-the-second-ostheer 

However, at the same time, I also suggested giving Volks a long-range AI weapon (for example: LMG 42) so they are more like a excel-at-long-range mainline infantry (quite similar to Ost's Grenadier) while Sturmpioneer being the CQC unit when you need.‎


So volks and obers would basically be just copy pasted grens and pgrens? Then what is even the point of having two german factions if they are pretty much the same?
2 Sep 2016, 22:23 PM
#37
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1



So two riflemen squads with double bars, one with double zooks, nice tactical command blobby group to destroy everything.


2 Bazookas do the damage of a regular AT shot, 160 damage, assuming both of them hit and pen.
See the problem? I don't, specially since you are calling 3 rifles a blob, which is consider the core of any USF strategy.
3 Sep 2016, 02:12 AM
#38
avatar of Jackas4life
Benefactor 115

Posts: 486 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2016, 14:31 PMZyllen


Im from beta and i cannot remember your so called balance issue. The only light vehicles that existed was the m3 and nothing else because of the callin meta. you didn't use shreks to counter the m3 especially since the m3 was usually the rather common sniper+m3 combo and could nail your shrek squad with simple kiting.

i thought that the double shrek upgrade was added for easy use.


I found that PGs with the single shrek were still a capable anti-infantry change, and you got to remember how much of a beast PGs use to be.

With the single shrek they could still go against infantry fairly well, and have a light to moderate counter to Armour such as T34s etc.

I think the idea behind the change was to keep PGs as a full anti-inf squad or anti tank with basic anti-inf
3 Sep 2016, 03:17 AM
#39
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770



The fact that you don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you don't know why pgrens were changed that way then don't say people who know are wrong.

There is no ease of use increase between buying one shreck when you have 60 muni, then another one when you have 60 muni again and waiting ages to get 120 muni, which was a fortune for ostheer back then. It was a straight nerf and it had its reasoning.

You also cant disagree with the fact that 3stgs + shreck is an absolute anti-everything doom machine and 2shrecks + 2stgs is unable to fight infantry at all. Especially as shrecks change models when they die, turning your AI off first.


Your arguments make no god damn sense because shreks single or dual didnt fit the meta. and im not going into a further debate because we are going offtopic.
3 Sep 2016, 08:26 AM
#40
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 571



That's exactly another problem. 400mp is far too much. 360mp would be reasonable since they have better received accuracy bonuses than PGren's.

This is how I have changed Obersoldaten in my mod that I've been working on.

"Obersoldaten
Moved from Panzer Headquarters to Battlegroup HQ
Can be equipped with double Panzer Shreks for 120 Munitions. Incompatible with other upgrades
Manpower cost decreased from 400mp to 360.
Kar98k Rifle accuracy reduced by 10%
Reinforcement time reduced from 12.5 to 9.5
MG34 upgrade replaced with Infrared STG’s. Requires Panzer Headquarters
IR STG’s now cost 90munitions
Received accuracy nerfed from 0.7 to 0.8
This is to balance out the squads price reduction and fact they come earlier
IR STG’s cover ignore bonus removed
"


Ahhh, what is going to deal with the infantry then?

Rangers, shocks, commandos, and rifleman double BAR, IS double bren will completely obliterate OKW.
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