Let's Talk: ISG Performance

If we buff AoE, reduce range, but leave accuracy as it is, it will be fucking OP.

I don't mind smoke or changing veterancy, but other than that, ISG is fine.

Then increase the scatter as well . at the moment i see people blobbing around against the okw because they know this unit has no killing power.

Sounds good in theory... if anything just to limit OKW Truck Sim City camping. Smoke is a no-braining for sure... while I personally like using the ISG to counter Brit emplacements and would hate to see my ISGs be subjected to Mortar Pit range I think being a more consistent unit overall is more worthwhile (you don't see emplacements *every* game). This of course assumes that scatter is adjusted if needed depending on the performance with the buffed AoE. Though I will admit that I don't find the ISG to be obviously underperforming as it currently is.

If people are so worried about accuracy, then adjust its scatter slightly so it's actually a piece of indirect-fire rather than being this odd sniper cannon that is literally hit-or-miss. Furthermore, with the range reduction, unless you're 24/7 barraging which means you're actually microing, you won't be blasting people as hard from range 100. You can still blast emplacements from a reasonable distance if you barrage and the ISG already has one of the faster cooldowns on its barrage at 30 seconds which is counting down the moment it starts.

As for the AOE, that can always be tuned, but the ISG's drop-off shouldn't be so harsh where anything outside of a direct hit is not noticeable at all.

Thought this discussion was meant to be about whether or not buffing the OKW's ISG as suggested was a relevant option to enable them to deal with early game entrenched armies, no? So what brought us to this post?

Original thing was something like: Flak Truck or FlakHT + ISG(s) being OP and non counterable by allies?


And as a bonus i liked to ask Ululu what he meant as saying p4 is "bullshit" because i could not understand why its "bullshit" unit like AA emplacement and halftrack. Because I in my low intellect would like to learn and understand.

Original thing was something like: Flak Truck or FlakHT + ISG(s) being OP and non counterable by allies?


And as a bonus i liked to ask Ululu what he meant as saying p4 is "bullshit" because i could not understand why its "bullshit" unit like AA emplacement and halftrack. Because I in my low intellect would like to learn and understand.

Well... assuming he means the schweres Panzer heaquarters protecting a relatively close range isg he's got a point, but it's not like that doesn't bares it's own risks either. Plenty of allied artillery/ At still counters that combination as well. The thing is that OKW has no viable options to deal with early game entrenched opponents, the isg was supposed to handle that and in it's current state really doesn't, am I wrong? (dee original post)

One way to improve the anti-garrison performance of ISG without changing its AoE characteristics is to simply increase the far-AoE damage multiplier, but leave its (tiny) radius as it is.

Now, regarding clipping the range of the ISG, I would like to point some not-so-obvious ramifications when it comes to countering Mortar Pits.

Even if we reduce the range of the Mortar Pit, the ISG will be in a significantly worse spot when it comes to countering mortar pits:
- The closer you are to the mortar pit, the easier it is to be hit (a max-range ISG will have no issue hitting the mortar pit. However, the mortar pit does have issues hitting ISGs; until they come closer)
- Having to move closer to the mortar pit means that you are too far away from your MedHQ. Unlike OST, OKW completely lacks mobile reinforcement platform options.
- Since you will be bruised much more, and will have to take breaks, double ISGs might not be able to apply the same amount of pressure vs Mortar Pits.

Therefore, nerfing the ISG max range might also necessitate reducing mortar pit durability and/or damage.

Original thing was something like: Flak Truck or FlakHT + ISG(s) being OP and non counterable by allies?


And as a bonus i liked to ask Ululu what he meant as saying p4 is "bullshit" because i could not understand why its "bullshit" unit like AA emplacement and halftrack. Because I in my low intellect would like to learn and understand.

Some people just like to derail threads. By engaging in an off-topic conversation with them, you are only assisting them in their endeavour.

If you really want to find out what the user meant, you can PM them.

Please don't take the bait.

Just give OKW a T0 broken mortar like the USF has...

The ISG is a fundamentally poorly designed unit. It is a build and forget weapon that picks off troops at distance with no player input. Having said that, the changes you suggest only aggravate that fact. Even the significant reduction in range you offer will have only a minimal effect since you are significantly upping the MP bleed when units do come in range. Now that OKW has suppression platforms they can hold the line and allow the ISG to work. Prior they required such a long range unit in part because of infantry's ability to get in under the gun quickly.

Currently the ISG is boring to play with and against. It hugs the nearest base structure, and fires fairly constantly on small maps. In team games the first Schwer locks out any attempt to attack the unit, and its useless vet is not even noticeable because it has no need to move or require player input.

Without a complete overhaul of the unit I don't see a need to change the stats. I really never felt that this unit should have been brought into the game, and it should, in my opinion, have only a barrage option, acting like a true howie. It would be offset by its early arrival, rapid firing, mobility, and lack of fuel cost. In that way it would be a true support weapon that required good micro, but would help break up defensive lines early and punish excessive mortar play. To compensate for loss of autofire the barrage could receive a significant buff. Again, since this would require quite a bit of work I don't recommend changes to the unit right now.

Just watch the first 20 mins of this this and tell me what barton (top notch player) could have done with those isgs on a larger map with more, or more durable garrisons like semosky or arnheim checkpoint or Angoville or whatever without smoke against an experienced maxim spammer. This map is already pretty tiny, hence isg favoring. And still with excellently microing 2 isgs he's more or less locked from resources for 20 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soSx3yoDckE

Both the pak howie and lieg don't fit well into this franchise's gameplay.

Artillery (and indirect fire) in general can be particularly limiting in gameplay choices. Their use and availability has to be carefully timed to not destroy the rest of the game which involves cover, suppression, garrisons, and maneuvering around shot blockers.

Given that the ISGs were apparently designed to be THE crewed indirect fire of WFA since they both lacked mortars until just recently, I think they're going to be perpetually awkward units.

I try and compare both ISGs to the nebelwerfer or landmattress. The role and function that the latter units provide fits better with what players seek to use.

Imagine if the land mattress or nebelwerfer just shot single rockets constantly. It'd be annoying and awkward to deal with.

If both ISGs were able to send off impressive barrages instead of autofiring it might help the situation. But that's more of an overhaul than anything. However, considering that ISGs have been botched and rebotched since they were released, this isn't too far out of the question.

Both the pak howie and lieg don't fit well into this franchise's gameplay.

Artillery (and indirect fire) in general can be particularly limiting in gameplay choices. Their use and availability has to be carefully timed to not destroy the rest of the game which involves cover, suppression, garrisons, and maneuvering around shot blockers.

Given that the ISGs were apparently designed to be THE crewed indirect fire of WFA since they both lacked mortars until just recently, I think they're going to be perpetually awkward units.

I try and compare both ISGs to the nebelwerfer or landmattress. The role and function that the latter units provide fits better with what players seek to use.

Imagine if the land mattress or nebelwerfer just shot single rockets constantly. It'd be annoying and awkward to deal with.

If both ISGs were able to send off impressive barrages instead of autofiring it might help the situation. But that's more of an overhaul than anything. However, considering that ISGs have been botched and rebotched since they were released, this isn't too far out of the question.

What's awkward about just having a standard average performing idf unit with smoke ability? Without Speaking in Tongues I mean.

I don't disagree with smoke for either ISG. I think the WFA armies could use it on their ISGs most definitely.

But then again, I find mortars with smoke work out just fine too.

The awkwardness comes either in their timing or their performance. They aren't mortars, but they aren't artillery like the LeFH or any of the rocket artillery units. Trying to place them somewhere in that middleground is the awkward part.

I personally would find ISGs performing as mobile artillery pieces, instead of glorified mortar teams with a different model, to work better. But my point is that they're awkward trying to be both, but acting as neither.

I don't disagree with smoke for either ISG. I think the WFA armies could use it on their ISGs most definitely.

But then again, I find mortars with smoke work out just fine too.

The awkwardness comes either in their timing or their performance. They aren't mortars, but they aren't artillery like the LeFH or any of the rocket artillery units. Trying to place them somewhere in that middleground is the awkward part.

I personally would find ISGs performing as mobile artillery pieces, instead of glorified mortar teams with a different model, to work better. But my point is that they're awkward trying to be both, but acting as neither.

And what's the significant difference between a regular mortar (with smoke) and the isg changes that miragefla is suggestig?

...Little? The main thing would be timing, as the ISGs are timed around their current functionality. But that's not that big an issue though.

I don't disagree that both ISGs could use some adjustments to make them function better in their roles. Either by converting them towards the mortar end of the spectrum like miragefla more or less is suggesting, or to push them in the opposite direction, away from autofiring and more like an artillery piece with stronger barrages.

I'm not sure if you're trying to provoke an argument or what, but what are you getting at? I'm not trying to dump on anyone's opinions here, just stating my own opinions more or less in support of this discussion.

The awkwardness comes either in their timing or their performance. They aren't mortars, but they aren't artillery like the LeFH or any of the rocket artillery units. Trying to place them somewhere in that middleground is the awkward part.

I personally would find ISGs performing as mobile artillery pieces, instead of glorified mortar teams with a different model, to work better. But my point is that they're awkward trying to be both, but acting as neither.

Ya mean they should cost a lot more and perform a lot more? Probably can't for OKW, since ISG is too alone in OKW's unit list (making a higher cost more painful to wait for if they really need it) and arrives too early for that (ironically the opposite reason as well, since the artillery units can't be built off the bat for reason eh?). The concept could be possible for Pack Howi since now USF has a mortar to use, but turning it into that would probably Motor Carriage even less used.

I think it's the other option than to make them mortar clones. Neither scenario can I attest to, since I haven't really experimented with it ingame with modtools.

Either way, changes to the ISGs will necessitate a reworking of the faction tiers.

The Scott is another awkward unit too for similar reasons.

...Little? The main thing would be timing, as the ISGs are timed around their current functionality. But that's not that big an issue though.

I don't disagree that both ISGs could use some adjustments to make them function better in their roles. Either by converting them towards the mortar end of the spectrum like miragefla more or less is suggesting, or to push them in the opposite direction, away from autofiring and more like an artillery piece with stronger barrages.

I'm not sure if you're trying to provoke an argument or what, but what are you getting at? I'm not trying to dump on anyone's opinions here, just stating my own opinions more or less in support of this discussion.

Not trying to provoke, sry. I just don't get the point. The initial post is pretty clear on improving barrage to make it more micro intensive as opposed to afk, right? Currently. if I want to use it successfully I have to micro it quite abt already I think, unless it's a very samll 1v1 map with an unaware opponent. I don't think it'll be much of a difference just more micro => more efficient is fair enough. If you play a mortar inattentive (see posted replay) it will be useless as well. From what I I understand it is just an attempt at getting it closer to any of the already existing mortars and giving some badly needed functionality to it without badly breaking anything in terms of ballance.

The ISG is a fundamentally poorly designed unit. It is a build and forget weapon that picks off troops at distance with no player input. Having said that, the changes you suggest only aggravate that fact. Even the significant reduction in range you offer will have only a minimal effect since you are significantly upping the MP bleed when units do come in range. Now that OKW has suppression platforms they can hold the line and allow the ISG to work. Prior they required such a long range unit in part because of infantry's ability to get in under the gun quickly.

Currently the ISG is boring to play with and against. It hugs the nearest base structure, and fires fairly constantly on small maps. In team games the first Schwer locks out any attempt to attack the unit, and its useless vet is not even noticeable because it has no need to move or require player input.

Without a complete overhaul of the unit I don't see a need to change the stats. I really never felt that this unit should have been brought into the game, and it should, in my opinion, have only a barrage option, acting like a true howie. It would be offset by its early arrival, rapid firing, mobility, and lack of fuel cost. In that way it would be a true support weapon that required good micro, but would help break up defensive lines early and punish excessive mortar play. To compensate for loss of autofire the barrage could receive a significant buff. Again, since this would require quite a bit of work I don't recommend changes to the unit right now.

What this guy said
If it's not broken DONT Fix it!!

And what's the significant difference between a regular mortar (with smoke) and the isg changes that miragefla is suggestig?

the ISG fire in a semi-low arc. Assaulting the gun piece can be dangerous because it travel in an almost direct arc.

Today I'm going to talk about the ISG for OKW.

Currently the ISG is in my opinion, terrible unit with its current purpose mainly being to blast British emplacements from a safe distance and be an annoyance that can generally be overlooked. ...
Solution:

-AOE Distance profile from 0.75/1.5/2.25 to 0.75/2/3.5
-AOE from 3 to 3.5.
-Building Damage Profile to match Mortars.

Here was Relic's last nerf to the damage profile:

LEIG
In our effort to make AOE more consistent we saw a huge jump in performance with indirect fire units such as the LEIG and Pak Howtizer. We are adjusting its stats to bring it more in line with other indirect fire units.

Suppression Amount reduced from 0.3 to 0.23
Auto fire reload Increased from 6 to 7
Barrage reload increased from 3 to 5
Damage far reduced from 0.25 to 0.2
Damage medium reduced from 0.5 to 0.4
Projectile lowest angel increased from 10 to 40
Vet 1 Range bonus reduced from 15% to 5%

The LeIG and pack howie were toxic to the game back then. They would be again. The LeIG still looks like the scatter is bugged so the accuracy is the same at 100 as at the minimum range. The only thing that you suggested that would be okay is the smoke option. Using smoke to help infantry get close would be okay and add something that OKW lacks.