Let's Talk: ISG Performance

Today I'm going to talk about the ISG for OKW.

Currently the ISG is in my opinion, terrible unit with its current purpose mainly being to blast British emplacements from a safe distance and be an annoyance that can generally be overlooked. Furthermore it requires a specific tier structure to get access to in a tier that has major issues clearing structures and dealing with entrenched infantry and forces Volks or other infantry to do the heavy lifting.

To compound this, with the ISG being ineffective at its role, it leads to the faction having massive issue versus entrenched opponents and HMG teams manpower-wise as their non-heavy, non-fuel based indirect-fire cannot reasonably clear those units or force them to retreat unless they're clumped to the point where an SU-85 shell could kill everyone or you're waiting a good minute for the ISG to do its jobs.

Below I'm going to list a number of issues and post my solutions to solve them, though we will start with the single nerf before going onto the buffs the unit should get.

ISG Auto-Fire

ISG have a slow rate of fire outside of barrage, but they require almost no input due to their long auto-fire range. If the ISG were to be buffed, it needs to have more micro required to be effective to avoid it from just becoming a mortar emplacement when set-up around a truck when given no player input.

With the upcoming buffs we'll be talking about, the ISG, will be quite effective when microed properly as the barrage recharges quickly which would maintain its 100 range base.

Solution: Auto-Fire from 100 to 80.

ISG AOE

The ISG's AOE is probably one of the worst the game for indirect-fire to compensate for its range and scatter to the point where the unit barely does any damage outside of direct hits. The AOE drops-off very quickly and its AOE radius isn't particularly good so you end up with the ISG really needing direct/near-direct hits on infantry to actually cause damage.

Here's the comparison:

Ostheer 81mm Mortar AOE

Near Distance: 1
Mid Distance: 0.5
Far Disance: 0.25

Near AOE: 1
Mid AOE: 2
Far AOE: 3

AOE Area: 4

ISG 75mm AOE

Near Distance: 1
Mid Distance: 0.4
Far Disance: 0.2

Near AOE: 0.75
Mid AOE: 1.5
Far AOE: 2.25

AOE Area: 3

From this, the ISG reaches its Mid AOE sooner and reaches its maximum damage limit far more quickly as well. Its OHK radius is also smaller than a standard mortar along with the radius in general.

I have no issue with the ISG having worse AOE given its accuracy/scatter, but I do have an issue with how it drops-off. To make the ISG be more consistent, it should have a slower taper-off to its far AOE and a bump to its mid AOE to match mortars. Its OHK radius barely changes and it still doesn't deal massive damage, but it can at least have noticeable AOE effects, something indirect-fire needs to hit infantry formation or forcing weapon teams to relocate sooner. A slight AOE boost should also aid in the ISG being able to splash hostile infantry.

Furthermore, the ISG's AOE profile does not follow the standard mortar shells. They are set to HE Shells which have a far greater penalty versus mortar shells meaning the ISG has a major issue destroying buildings which OKW has issues with outside of using Stukas or grenading it to death. If the ISG cannot harm or level structures, then you're better off using flame grenades to clear the building out in a more timely manner or even stolen mortars.

Solution:

-AOE Distance profile from 0.75/1.5/2.25 to 0.75/2/3.5
-AOE from 3 to 3.5.
-Building Damage Profile to match Mortars.

Smoke Rounds

Outside of Pumas, and Ober Vet 1 grenades which can harm you if you enter the cloud, OKW has absolutely no ability to smoke-off areas to let their troops assault defensive positions. Almost every other faction has some way to fire smoke without throwing a vehicle in front of the line, so why not let the ISG have smoke rounds? OKW is generally an aggressive early-mid, yet they lack one of the most vital tools to perform this task.

Solution:

The ISG should fire anywhere between 3-5 smoke rounds with a reasonable or even short cooldown to allow OKW to push defensive lines or just having that utility.

Veterancy

I'll be brief on this as this a general OKW thing in general with their 5 veterancy levels, but the ISG needs its veterancy reworked. Currently it has defense/speed boosts for a unit that does not operate at the front/near the front. Maybe it did in Alpha, but it definitely does not work that way now.

If anything, the ISG should have gotten Hollow Charge rounds at veterancy 1 which works like a Targeted ability where the ISG fires a single round at the vehicle at long-range. The rest of its veterancy can then be adjusted either to match indirect-fire units, or shifting it so its actual offensive boosts come earlier with the defenses coming last as the little extra from veterancy 4 and 5 or giving it need ability at rank 4 and 5.



TLDR: Buff ISG AOE, give smoke, lower auto-fire range.

Anyways feel free to leave your opinions and comments so we can discuss this. And please note discuss, not random tantrums please, simply because a unit got buffed/changed.

If you give free ISG smoke will Volks retain their lava grenades?

If you give free ISG smoke will Volks retain their lava grenades?

I don't see why not

I just wish the ISG wouldn't bug out sometimes and instead of firing on targit, it drops its shells halfway to the targit.

Also giving it an autofire range equals to the Bofors suppressive fire would be lame.

If you give free ISG smoke will Volks retain their lava grenades?

OKW loses incendiary grenades, T2 first become obsolete if the enemy gets an HMG in a good building.

Have you tested this change before? Smoke is extremely important and I think this change would give people a reason to open with MedHQ other than to get healing.

I'll rather have hollow shells been timed/modal rather than a barrage with 0 AoE.

Forgeting okw has free are lock with t3. They dont need mortar or isg at all exepct vs emplaycements. Isg is not up at minimum.
They are like 4 better than sov stock shit mortar.

Agreed with OP.
Now, for a useful hollow round vet1:
Hollow skillshot barrage dependent on enemy not being retarded:
1 shot, pinpoint accuracy.

Today I'm going to talk about the ISG for OKW.

Currently the ISG is in my opinion, terrible unit with its current purpose mainly being to blast British emplacements from a safe distance and be an annoyance that can generally be overlooked. Furthermore it requires a specific tier structure to get access to in a tier that has major issues clearing structures and dealing with entrenched infantry and forces Volks or other infantry to do the heavy lifting.
......

I watched the VonIvan vs Barton replay. Barton's 2 ISG's killed 91 models in a 1v1. That really needs a buff?

I agree that it doesn't counter SimCity very well, but who builds these to counter SimCity anyway?

Agree with miragefla on this. OKW currently doesn't have a way of dealing with entrenched opponents other than Stuka, too late, too expensive garrison areas can be locked down pretty early by entrenched MGs and the ISG does very little to the garrison as well as the unit inside.

Autofire range down to to 80 is fine if in return it actually does something.

Frangible grenade from Obers or Falls I don't think is a viable offensive smoke option. It's rather a grenade that slows advances and is available pretty late into the game.

An issue I could see here is that infiltration grenades are very effective anti building but without smoke it's hard to get close enough, plus they are doctrinal at 3CP. Either way infiltration grenades for 15 munitions in combination with smoke will be pretty powerful if not OP I predict.

I watched the VonIvan vs Barton replay. Barton's 2 ISG's killed 91 models in a 1v1. That really needs a buff?

I agree that it doesn't counter SimCity very well, but who builds these to counter SimCity anyway?

Assuming that was a pretty long match on a small map with maxim spam in the open and early aquired, well managed ISGs? That can happen now and then. Consider the investment over time, too. Double ISGs are 660 MP and 18 pop cap. And they won't perform that well with just auto fire, only if you micro them properly. Also there are plenty of counters if they get too annoying, like heavy mortar, Katyusha, Pack Howie... You'll be spending quite some time and attention keeping them alive and crewed.

For SimCity they somewhat counter it now that the counter barrage actually costs munis and has a recharge time, but not when it's already got the full blown thing with Assembly repairs and buffed armor behind it.

To points:

1. Auto-fire range nerf is interesting idea. But... it will make it really similar with USF howie, which also has smaller range of autofire, than range of directed barrage. That's not that case, when copypasting is good idea, better copypaste HMGs.

2. Small AoE is result of that big range of autofire + early (than USF howie) income + it's cheaper, if I remember right. In any case, such small AoE is "balancing weakness" of that unit, not sure, that it should be changed. And let's not forget - unlike mortars, field small howitzers can also deal damage to tanks.

3. Yea, let's now add smoke rounds to OKW. Seriously, don't you see, that OKW turns in some kind of "OST but better" and do it pretty fast. First it was loss of "resourse starvation" issue, who knows what for, then they got stock HMG and doctrinal howitzer - now that. Let it have some other pluses and for those pluses, reasonable minuses. I really liked that old OKW with income penalty more, than that we have today. It was uniqe, had it's own interesting gameplay with powerful and weak sides. OKW don't need smoke, absolutely don't need. Such as they didn't need MG-34 in stock, such as they didn't need normal resourse income and all other wierd changes.

I agree this unit is not great against anything except emplacements, but there are plenty of units far more deserving of a buff/rework than this one. Then again just because there are worse units out there doesn't mean we can't look at this one.

I'm not totally on board with the range reduction, it would make it less effective against emplacements, the gap between barrages (enabling repairs by brit player) combined with brace would make it hard to kill emplacements. It's handy to be able to put in a few standard shots while waiting for the recharge. That said slight cooldown reduction on barrage could address this.

Increased AoE could be a way to help the unit but I like the idea of more useful vet and possible smoke rounds more. I don't think this a straight-up bad unit more than a highly niche one in an awkward tech spot, especially now that medics require fuel and the T1 truck is thus less desirable than before. Giving it better vet/abilities could open up a greater range of uses and make it more worthwhile.

Assuming that was a pretty long match on a small map with maxim spam in the open and early aquired, well managed ISGs? That can happen now and then. Consider the investment over time, too. Double ISGs are 660 MP and 18 pop cap. And they won't perform that well with just auto fire, only if you micro them properly. Also there are plenty of counters if they get too annoying, like heavy mortar, Katyusha, Pack Howie... You'll be spending quite some time and attention keeping them alive and crewed.

For SimCity they somewhat counter it now that the counter barrage actually costs munis and has a recharge time, but not when it's already got the full blown thing with Assembly repairs and buffed armor behind it.

Double pack howies cost 760 MP and 22 pop cap, yet kill less and require more micro. I don't care what Relic does to SimCity but any buff to the ISG would return it to the state that it was several patches ago when 1v1's on small maps were unplayable.

+1 I'm for all of these changes. Just be careful with the AOE getting too strong.

Double pack howies cost 760 MP and 22 pop cap, yet kill less and require more micro. I don't care what Relic does to SimCity but any buff to the ISG would return it to the state that it was several patches ago when 1v1's on small maps were unplayable.

So,
- It has better survivability (6 vs 4 men)
- When vetted can kill garrisoned HMG in one shot.
- Better in general against garrison
- Barrages always hit where they are ordered to.
- When vetted can deny capping cap point alone.
- Can fire smoke when vetted.

Apparently is should be cheaper then...

- Why on earth would any one need 2 of them? Opposition does not have anything that they could repair as fast as it would shoot them down for just 1.
- How does it need more micro? Just leave it near base mg in 1 vs 1 it usually blasts to fuels and vic points from there automaticly.

^
^
pack howi need 3 men Crew
-------------
ISG Firing Arc should be back to Early WFA State ?

and Pack howi should be back too when they have Mortar for provide
arced projectile trajectory indirect

Double pack howies cost 760 MP and 22 pop cap, yet kill less and require more micro. I don't care what Relic does to SimCity but any buff to the ISG would return it to the state that it was several patches ago when 1v1's on small maps were unplayable.

What makes you think it kills less and requires more micro? Maybe read the original post with the details of the current performance and the reasoning for why this needs a change. All of what he states there is simply true ;-) .

Hello,


if u nerf the range from ISG....how should the german fraction deal with sim city builders?

A nerf to the range means a big buff to the british forces.


I testet it...one morta emplacement can be faster repair than two ISG would do dmg.
it takes 7minutes (!) to kill one emplacment with 2 ISG only repaired by the british repair house.

while this 7min..the mortar emplacment do much dmg vs the ISG..i need 450 manpower to heal the ISG. That´s to much.

if u nerf the range....