t34/85 is a bit too cheap

Isn't really that relevant, because its main cannon can actually hit infantry.

except this mean that the t34/85 can kill infantry reliably with both its main gun and excellent machine gun. It is extremely relevant.

except this mean that the t34/85 can kill infantry reliably with both its main gun and excellent machine gun. It is extremely relevant.

As can any other med of this tier with exception of cromwell.
And that was never an argument for other meds.

As can any other med of this tier with exception of cromwell.
And that was never an argument for other meds.

med tank mg were pretty awful beside the ones on the panzer4, and now the t34 variants.

the two current mgs on the t34 are almost as good as the three on the panzer4. that's a significant buff.

the .50cal upgrade on the sherman is severely overpriced, and those coaxial and hull mg on the western allies tank are significantly weaker than the soviet and panzer 4 coaxial.

O o o I got the solution! what if you make the p4 a crappy ultra cheap tank, and then you put it in tier 4 (you know for additional faction flavour), but then nobody uses it, so you buff their mg but still nobody uses it ... no? ... nobody? at least you can give it flares or capture territory as vet abilities ...

Ok end of joke. The p4 has the magic powers of blitzkrieg, and has access to smoke (they are fine but you don't have to deal with useless stuff like cap territory or ram) and better vet bonus, meanwhile it faces the fearsome ptrs troops instead of panzerfaust blobs.

In my opinion t34-85 is fine, maybe it should be a non doctrinal unit with a really small fuel increase, probably the other medium tanks are the problem considering the situation of the sherman, the cromwell, the t34 and the p4.

For instance:
Panzer IV:
120 - 110 - 100 (Near - Mid - Far)

Sherman
140 - 120 - 100

Cromwell
135 - 120 - 105

T-34/76
120 - 100 -80

T-34/85
160 - 140 - 120

Puma
160 - 120 - 80

What this means is that even though P4 penetration looks pretty low compared to the Sherman, they become equal at max-range.

I haven't checked it recently but don't the Sherman's AP shells have the same penetration profile as the Cromwell?

If that is the weapons profile for pen, the p4 needs some love.

Penetration values don't tell the whole story.

The Ostheer Panzer IV has 180 frontal armour to the Cromwell, Sherman, and T-34/76's 160. The Cromwell, for example, has the same chance to penetrate a Panzer IV as the Panzer IV has to penetrate a Cromwell at point-blank range (75%) but the Panzer IV has a slightly higher fire rate so it is expected to win head-on fights. At any other range, the Panzer IV has a higher chance to penetrate the Cromwell than vice versa (M 68.75% v. 66.66%, F 62.5% v. 58.33%).
The T-34/76 was fairly widely considered a poor tank before the MG buff despite its low fuel cost because the penetration fall-off meant it was extremely unreliable at any range but point-blank (and it couldn't reliably kill infantry).

The problem with major buffs to the penetration of any medium tank is that they devalue both more expensive and heavier-armoured units, and tank destroyers. For all the issues players have with the Tiger's "low" frontal armour, your average medium tank has less than a 50% chance to penetrate it.

I haven't checked it recently but don't the Sherman's AP shells have the same penetration profile as the Cromwell?


Penetration values don't tell the whole story.

The Ostheer Panzer IV has 180 frontal armour to the Cromwell, Sherman, and T-34/76's 160. The Cromwell, for example, has the same chance to penetrate a Panzer IV as the Panzer IV has to penetrate a Cromwell at point-blank range (75%) but the Panzer IV has a slightly higher fire rate so it is expected to win head-on fights. At any other range, the Panzer IV has a higher chance to penetrate the Cromwell than vice versa (M 68.75% v. 66.66%, F 62.5% v. 58.33%).
The T-34/76 was fairly widely considered a poor tank before the MG buff despite its low fuel cost because the penetration fall-off meant it was extremely unreliable at any range but point-blank (and it couldn't reliably kill infantry).

The problem with major buffs to the penetration of any medium tank is that they devalue both more expensive and heavier-armoured units, and tank destroyers. For all the issues players have with the Tiger's "low" frontal armour, your average medium tank has less than a 50% chance to penetrate it.

you forgot accuracy as always the Sherman and Cromwell get 0.75 on the move p4 only 0.5

I think the price should be fine as-is. Price paradoxes like the P4-vs-T-34-85 have existed since vCoH; look at Volksgrenadiers and Grenadiers; for a whopping 20 MP more (300 MP) than a Volks squad, you got the Grenadiers which were a huge improvement (much more than 20 MP's worth).

Do we have a guide with up-to-date unit costs around here somewhere? I feel like the rather 'meh' Panzer IV is amusingly close in cost to the beast that is T34/85s.

its unlock is ~ 100fuel 500mp more expensive than okw p4. Also its doctrinal, and okw has panthers that wipe the floor with them.

its unlock is ~ 100fuel 500mp more expensive than okw p4. Also its doctrinal, and okw has panthers that wipe the floor with them.

And also better & more convenient support AT.

I haven't checked it recently but don't the Sherman's AP shells have the same penetration profile as the Cromwell?


Penetration values don't tell the whole story.

The Ostheer Panzer IV has 180 frontal armour to the Cromwell, Sherman, and T-34/76's 160. The Cromwell, for example, has the same chance to penetrate a Panzer IV as the Panzer IV has to penetrate a Cromwell at point-blank range (75%) but the Panzer IV has a slightly higher fire rate so it is expected to win head-on fights. At any other range, the Panzer IV has a higher chance to penetrate the Cromwell than vice versa (M 68.75% v. 66.66%, F 62.5% v. 58.33%).
The T-34/76 was fairly widely considered a poor tank before the MG buff despite its low fuel cost because the penetration fall-off meant it was extremely unreliable at any range but point-blank (and it couldn't reliably kill infantry).

The problem with major buffs to the penetration of any medium tank is that they devalue both more expensive and heavier-armoured units, and tank destroyers. For all the issues players have with the Tiger's "low" frontal armour, your average medium tank has less than a 50% chance to penetrate it.

I've spent a lot of time testing the P4 against other mediums at max range and at killing infantry. I can't understand why the price is as high as it is considering the P4 doesn't perform in either aspect any better than the price would suggest.

You not taking scatter and moving accuracy into consideration.

And also better & more convenient support AT.

OKW has better AT support?

couple of things here...
1.

First one is very expensive

proposes a price increase...

2.

but as the game moves on over 30-40min it becomes too cheap

the whole point of t34s and their crappy scaling relative to other armour is that when they are lost they are easier to replace
they dont get more durable with vet, the dont get abilities to support infantry or save their lives, their "thing" is that you can be ballsy with them.

the 85 is a great tank, its a clear upgrade from the 76 and its cost relative to the unit its intended to replace reflects that.
i am certainly not going to pay 60-65 more fuel for an 85 when i could have 2 76s in about a minute instead-giving me more health, more firepower, more presence and more options.

the cost of the 85 cant be compared vs other factions medium tanks because the soviet medium armour doesnt follow the rules that the other factions do.
the t34/76 costs a mere 80 fuel, yet is capable of going toe to toe with a p4. if that is acceptable why does an 85 need to become more expensive when its just as likely to be beaten by a p4 as a p4 is to be beaten by t34/76?


tldr the power of the soviet war machine is its ability to replace armoured losses vs having vet that makes them indispensable- the cost reflects this, compared to the unit it is designed to replace, if anything its over priced at almost 150% the price for a negligible armour increase, 1 more shot of health and more pen, imagine the ost having the okw p4 in t3 for 200 fuel? (not the greatest selection to compare i know, but you get the point)

you are not going to pay for 76s because they are shit tanks, not because of its cost, and 85's do not have any bugs or glitches so yes they follow the rules of all factions.

You know what they really need to nerf?

Ram and capture abilities for the T34-85.

the t34/85 is a bit too cheap since the last patched buffed the mg on the t34/85.

I wouldn't say it's broken, but it should be made a bit more expensive, something like 385mp 135fuel.

sure.

its unlock is ~ 100fuel 500mp more expensive than okw p4. Also its doctrinal, and okw has panthers that wipe the floor with them.

using panthers against either the 85 or e8 is a very good way to lose. everybody knows that stugs and jp's are way better medium tank killers then the panthers. well anybody except you.

That said 85's are fine omly the p4's of both factions are a bit to expensive.

I agree that call ins are the next major balance issue. I'm on board with miragefla where they are dramatically more expensive if you don't have tech.

I don't mind if you still call them in with no build time but being able to skip tech makes pricing things very difficult.

Relic should start to incorporate call-in units with their corresponding tech buildings. As for call-ins that fall in the Tier (#).5 catagories or simply have no possible place in the tech structure... that'll be a work in progress.

Relic should start to incorporate call-in units with their corresponding tech buildings. As for call-ins that fall in the Tier (#).5 catagories or simply have no possible place in the tech structure... that'll be a work in progress.

side tech for the ones that are #.5 and the ones that dont quite fit in would probably work
soviet call in infantry would probably need that system unless we go back to the roots of requiring special rifle

That said 85's are fine omly the p4's of both factions are a bit to expensive.

cheap as shit is too expensive for you? okw p4 100f 500mp cheaper than 3485. P4 > t70 as much as 3485 >p4 in terms of its unlock res.

cheap as shit is too expensive for you? okw p4 100f 500mp cheaper than 3485. P4 > t70 as much as 3485 >p4 in terms of its unlock res.

150 fu = 100 fu
Aaa just stop
Who let you out of the ban cage ?
Mod please