Rebalancing the Stuka Dive Bomb

Stuka divebomb uses just sound to indicate where it is landing, there are several flaws to this design. First is that the warning bugs out, or is buried behind other loud sounds, making the nuke invisible. If you launch divebomb at same time other explosions happen it's undetectable.

It's also unfair in team games as it forces all the opponents to relocate since it's almost impossible to guess who it is targeting.

The time it takes for the divebomb to land is too short compared to the devestation. It needs to either be more visible or take longer to land.

Giving the opponent some chance to react should be universal to all nuke abilites.

what is the mod you use to do your tests?

The best way to counter the Stuka diving bomb is actually BY pro-blobbing. The reason is that you don't have to jump around the map like crazy to find out which squads you need to move.

Regarding acquiring sight. This is actually the most trivial thing to achieve in any team-game setting:
- Artillery Flares
- or (if you want to get nasty) spotting scopes on 222 (The Elefant doctrine has been very much in-meta since release)

There will ALWAYS be some point in time where your enemy will be microing (e.g., because they have to dodge your Elefant, or they have to just micro their tank). Now their support is dead; and you only gambled 160 munitions for it.

What's not right about stukat is the fact that most likely you will hear the sound around 6-7sec before landing and it's way to short to move crew weapons.

I wonder why it was ninja buffed in the first place.

Second thing, railway should be most devastating, not dive bomb.

no stuka dive bomb into the base sector. Otherwise its fine. Never had a problem with stuka

Am I the only one who doesn't struggle vs this? If I hear it I can almost pinpoint it accurately and move at the same time. - Hell ask any of the other Angry Bears when we are against it I can ping on almost the exact spot they are gonna get hit.

I agree with the removal of it being able to hit HQ zone.

I honestly can't remember when I last lost more than 1 unit to stuka dive bomb.

Please post your sound settings (Low? Medium? High?). I am not kidding.

I've been using Low sound settings (since the soundbug days). For the purpose of this thread I've also trialed Medium and High and they sound dodgier (especially if you pan the camera on other parts of the map). I might be wrong.

I always get a 5 second warning tops (and only if my camera does not happen to be at the other side of the map). There is also a 5-second no-warning time between activating the ability and when the plane starts growling. If you count the time it takes to:
- Pan the camera around to the right location
- Pan it a bit more to tell EXACTLY where that ability hits

If you have split your forces in more than two parts, you run an enormous risk of losing part of them. That's why Stuka Bomb, actually, REWARDS blobbing.

I find it's the only really useful offmap artillery ostheer has... that and incendiary Arty. All the other ones are just so meh.

At OP:
The AOE you are proposing is absolutely tiny. It takes a super long time to land and often the noise is more noticeable than red flares. The only time it's truly effective is when they are pro blobbing or greatly bunched up and even then they can always move their units.

Is it really tiny?

- Currently the one-shot-radius is equal to 15. That's way too much.
- I estimate that if we remove the kill-critical, the one-shot radius will be reduced to 9.5
- 9.5 is already bigger than the pre-ninja-buff Stuka Bomb radius (which was 6.5; see updated OP)
- I don't know if Miragefla did any further messing with the values (since I used his mod to take the screenshot)
- The (one-shot radius of the Sturmtiger is 8)

As a compromise we could reduce the delay between firing the bomb, and when it hits. The initial 5 seconds where the sound cue is inaudible don't help the defender in any way.

If you still believe this is tiny:
- Propose what should be the one-hit radius of this ability, then we can discuss
- Recall that the ability costs only 160 munitions
- Compare the AoE effect of this ability to ANY other ability in the game (even if the enemy forgets about their infantry for the entire duration)
- Again, recall that this ability only costs 160 munitions.

I still don't understand why it needs to kill infantry within 15m simply by touching them. If we don't want to touch its AOE then remove the instant death crit from the ability which could probably go to all artillery that crits infantry even if they're on the outer edges.

The death-crit is down to aesthetics mostly. I too, agree that it would look better if some troops were not-instagibbed but were brought down to low health, depending on the distance.

Whether the radius of the Stuka Bomb should increase or decrease to accommodate this could be a topic of this thread. However, it is more important to decide what the one-hit-radius should look like, though.

Welp becauce Stuka is kinda a skill shot ability, which requres prediction and luck. Not to mention that Stuka cound be countered by mass retreat (its not a bad think because you know Air supperiority force you to do this aswell). Not to mention that if you are not a blober Stuka is not more dangerious then any other arty.

If you look on it from the insane wipe possability then yes, it should be nerfed but also demo charges and other insta wipe arty then. If you look on it from arty perpective its not THAT good.

A mass retreat is the LAST thing you want to do vs a Stuka Dive Bomb:
- There is high chance you retreat through the blast radius (and be ded)
- You don't know if the enemy's teammate is lining another stuka bomb right at your base.
- Also, that 50-second cooldown.

what is the mod you use to do your tests?

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=333763272&searchtext=cheat+mod

I also added a few pics of before-and-after hits with the UKF Bombing run on the OP. You can also view them here.

Before:


After:

^ Yes, zooming-out can be a bit deceiving here. Sorry for that.

Recall that:
- UKF Air Supremacy costs 320 munitions
- Is very obvious to spot, with a long warning time (flares + warning cycle + airplanes + noise)
- You can still retreat WHILE being bombarded
- Stuka dive bomb: one hit and you are out

If you don't think that the "devastation" caused by the UKF bombing run is not a good measure of comparison, tell me which ability you want me to compare Stuka Diving Bomb to, and I will provide the pics.

There are no issues with Ostheer retaining its superiority in off-map abilities. However, those abilities need to come at an appropriate cost.

yes pls.. nerf ostheer more. cannot kill them quickly enough.

when dive bomb got ninja buffed, like immensely, did your win rate go up?

drama queens in this forums gotta take more pills.

a stat based, detailed post and all they can say is:

I think this ability is over the top.

for me, nerf aoe is pre ninja buff and fix sound bugs where sound bugs and you dont hear stuka diving untill it is too late.

when dive bomb got ninja buffed, like immensely, did your win rate go up?

drama queens in this forums gotta take more pills.

a stat based, detailed post and all they can say is:

I think this ability is over the top.

for me, nerf aoe is pre ninja buff and fix sound bugs where sound bugs and you dont hear stuka diving untill it is too late.

Because it kills your USF fanboirism Major Forward retreat point real quick?

You can hear it, you have time to move your stuff.

Only thing it would really need to be fair would be flares.

Because it kills your USF fanboirism Major Forward retreat point real quick?

You can hear it, you have time to move your stuff.

Only thing it would really need to be fair would be flares.

did you even look at the screenshots? the melting radius is almost half the screen long lol.

i dont mind it not having flares if it goes back to pre ninja buff state. and sound bug i mean me and my mate have actually witnesses two times last 2 weeks when we've actually heard stuka diving after the bomb fell already.

Nerf it into the ground and let howitzers have a chance in the sun.

TBH, one of the annoying thing about off-map air in this game is how completely antihistorical it is. The tiny remnants of the Luftwaffe in 1945 mostly tried to defend Germany for aerial attack, not close air support. There really shouldn't be a Stuka loiter, dive bomb, etc. On the other hand, US should have much better off-map air.

Because the ability we are talking about belongs to the Ostheer, meant to symbolize the German army fighting on the eastern front against the Russians during the earlier parts of the war.

Also, to OP: Your suggestions make sense, but for heaven's sake buff Ostheer late game first. Why the hell are you all crying for something so underused and insignificant when there are more cancerous sht that's comonplace than the "OPIEOP stuka bive domb".

And my proposed change: switch out the damage and AOE of the dive bomb and the Schwerer Gustav. Maybe decrease the shels fired by the Gustav since it has now has great insta gib radius (like it should have, historically). And that so, like some guy said on this thread, a 50 kg no warning bomb doesn't beat out the payload of the biggest fucking gun to have ever existed.

relic pls fix that

I did some detective work on coh2stats and I found the following:

The Stuka-Dive Ninja-buff has increased the killing area by at least 5 times (for no reason)

If we look at the stats over at http://www.coh2-stats.com/explosive_weapons/stuka_500_lb_bomb_mp we can conclude that:
- The ninja-buff MUST have added the insta-gib death critical (the radius of the pre-buff and the post-buff Stuka are identical, but the performance is nowhere the same)
- The one-hit-kill radius used to be 6.5
- The proposed nerf (Miragefla's mod) will knock the killing radius down to 9.5 (that's already better than pre-ninja)

Thus, the ninja-buff increased the killing radius from 6.5 to 15 (that's an area).

If the Stuka Dive Bomb wasn't UP before, and nobody ever asked for a buff, why did it merit a 5-times increase of the killing area?

(also added to OP)

I demand that they remove the ability to call it in on base sectors along with any other call ins you can use in base sectors

I wanna sit in my base and jack off not be scared about a stuka bomb falling on my head

I even get u 2 replays where I use em effectivly on others. And thats MID level play - its 50-200 level, so from your post i see u are just stubborn mate. When one has played over 1000 games, one just know units usual pathways, so one doesnt plant em just on narrow pathways , and still plenty on maps like Semois, lost glider, angovile etc.

To effectivly use demos u plant em - 1st Near frequent used houses, 2nd - around corners blocking truesight (both neglet sweepers), 3rd - put on frequent unit passage, like teller mines 4th - put em on frequently used unit covers, cars/fences most used enemy.

Demos work wonders using ASS engies from USF, cause no one expects mines/demos from USF, i have won countless games using em.

Good for you if you played against someone who blobs and doesnt know how to sweep.

It's not becasue your demos were so awesome but because of lazyness of your enemy.

Seriously, since january I have lost maybe 4-5 squad due to demo charges and I blamed only myslef becasue I did not put enough micro or forgot about a unit for a moment.

Also, if you're annoyed that it can destroy you FRP, that's your problem for either A. Not protecting it, or B. Putting it too far forward and being greedy with your field presence. EFAs don't even get FRPs. Stuka dive bombs help balance the cheese that the newer faction get exclusively.

What FRP? Huh? Where did I mention any FPR?

I did some detective work on coh2stats and I found the following:

The Stuka-Dive Ninja-buff has increased the killing area by at least 5 times (for no reason)

If we look at the stats over at http://www.coh2-stats.com/explosive_weapons/stuka_500_lb_bomb_mp we can conclude that:
- The ninja-buff MUST have added the insta-gib death critical (the radius of the pre-buff and the post-buff Stuka are identical, but the performance is nowhere the same)
- The one-hit-kill radius used to be 6.5
- The proposed nerf (Miragefla's mod) will knock the killing radius down to 9.5 (that's already better than pre-ninja)

Thus, the ninja-buff increased the killing radius from 6.5 to 15 (that's an area).

If the Stuka Dive Bomb wasn't UP before, and nobody ever asked for a buff, why did it merit a 5-times increase of the killing area?

(also added to OP)

+

when dive bomb got ninja buffed, like immensely, did your win rate go up?

drama queens in this forums gotta take more pills.

a stat based, detailed post and all they can say is:

I think this ability is over the top.

for me, nerf aoe is pre ninja buff and fix sound bugs where sound bugs and you dont hear stuka diving untill it is too late.

No, my winrate did not go up when it got ninja buffed. When was it ninja buffed anyway? 2 years?

What FRP? Huh? Where did I mention any FPR?

+

I wasn't trying to quote anyone in particular. Just posting my thoughts. I do remember some ppl complaining about stuka dive bombs on their major + ambulance combo.

I wasn't trying to quote anyone in particular. Just posting my thoughts. I do remember some ppl complaining about stuka dive bombs on their major + ambulance combo.

Well, it's not me.

In fact, I support full-army wipes on FRP. I will support all kinds of abilities that punish blobbers.

The problem with dive bomb is this:

You have 2 AT Guns, somehwere else HMG and mortart behind.

Now, you hear the sound around 6-7sec before landing and you don't know where.

Is it enough time to move 2 AT Guns and HMG+Mortar? You'll hardly have time to move even one of them.

On the other hand we have 4x50kg IL-2 bomb which are more expensive, easy to dodge and far far inferior.

Yes it needs to be nerfed like UKF bombing run, so no one ever use it. (i would agree on cost increase to 200)

UKF bombing run is an excellent comparison, actually. Stuka dive bomb does more damage, much faster, is radically more difficult to dodge and all this for half of air superiority's price. And that's before you count the sound bug which makes it flatly undodgeable.

It was perfectly useful before it was massively ninja buffed. In its present state it is flatly indefensible.

Ok, from reading the posts Mr. Smith has laid out a powerful argument for why dive bomb should be nerfed (and it obviously does), and I see no good argument for why it shouldn't.

Ability is so cost effective right now it hurts. Even more so on any map with ice where it can sink the weapons it decrews or maybe even a tank or car spinning its wheels.

It was asked before and so I think it fair to ask again, what is the purpose of this ability? Is it to hit stationary targets (AoE irrelevant) or to punish blobs and support weapon bunching (AoE key) but provide attentive players some way to escape it.

Right now I drop these near a players most expensive unit, they have to retreat, I always drop behind the unit and then they end up retreating right into the hit. With the AoE guessing the location I need to drop is trivial.

a stat based, detailed post and all they can say is: +1000

Really the screenshots say it all - Stuka Bomb is a steal for 160 Muni compared to similarly priced/more expensive off-maps. Especially when you consider that most offmaps have some scatter aspect that lessens their lethality to a degree (plus flares) whereas Stuka Bomb has pin-point accuracy. Heck even in Cruzz's post following that patch he made a point of specifically saying what a huge buff it was.

Slightly reducing the AoE and/or removing the insta-kill crit won't change the Stuka Bomb's role as a (relatively inexpensive) pinpoint off map that can nuke support weapons and FRPs. It just means that if your opponent doesn't get overly punished if they barely dodge it in time and get hit by the outer edges of the current AoE (which MrSmith has shown to be rather large)