Petition to revert crushing change

There are for sure better ways to address the issues with crush. Changing max speed alone is a starter as I'm almost positive this is driven by the Cromwell.

max speed is not the problem, it's the rotation rate.

Tank don't ram into infantry at max speed, they turn into them.

The T34 has been receiving buffs and price drops over the past year, it doesn't depress me if it can't crush anymore.

firstly, the price was bumped back up to where it was before.

second, this is the TOP tier tank soviets can even get non-doc. And its AI capability is still worse than any axis tank.

Every now and then somebody catches you napping and you lose a squad to crush. If multiple squads are getting crushed you deserved to lose. Classic micro intensive counter to heavy blobbers, no reason to remove. If you could run over reatring squads it would be an issue, but you can't, so just hit T if a crisis is about to happen.

+1. Infantry should fear tanks, not the other way around. If they are going to change it just adjust the main offenders (Cromwell, m10, etc) with slight nerfs to rotation speed or whatever.

I am fine with crush, as long as Cromwell and M10 gets a rotation speed nerf.

Tanks > Ribcage

Crush got removed, something what i didn't expected. No one asked for that, you can make M10 do not crush infantry separately just like you removed t70 ability to crush.

I can't understand how many people want crush back. In addition to the small 4 man squads of Ostheer, a Cromwell simply needed to drive into the squad to force a retreat or to wipe it in about 50% of the time.

Crushing is just random cheese that uses a fucked up pathing to kill models. In addition it doesn't make sense that some tanks are good at crushing while others are not without any particular reason.

I can't understand how many people want crush back. In addition to the small 4 man squads of Ostheer, a Cromwell simply needed to drive into the squad to force a retreat or to wipe it in about 50% of the time.

Crushing is just random cheese that uses a fucked up pathing to kill models. In addition it doesn't make sense that some tanks are good at crushing while others are not without any particular reason.

This,also crushing should imply a tank charging at max speed towards a squad, not turning in it and bugging it to shit cause pathing.

If this change is implemented into the game, I will stop playing it - Because it fundamentally breaks the tank infantry dynamic - Crushing gives tanks a light anti-infantry ability just as infantry have light anti-tank, removing this therefore makes handheld at so strong that it would ruin the meta of the entire game

Balancing around inferior design is bad.
The argument in question is whether crushing was a good design or not.

I believe it was a bad design: it ties effectiveness against all targets and ability to escape to one important variable--can't impact one matchup without impacting another or destroying what some need to compete in one area. Now, hull / coaxial / etc. MGs can be buffed as needed for more precise balancing against each class of unit, target tables included.
Good riddance.

What makes you think it is a bad design? Actually it has all the charachteristics of good design:
- it needs skill to pull off
- it is extremely risky if you just yolo your tank into enemy, you have to think twice about all the odds
- it is powerfull - high risk high reward, as opposite of real bad design examples like emplacements
- but on the other hand super easily soft countered by retreat
- and not much less easily hard countered by mines, at nades and other AT placed behind the lines
- it not or very little rng dependant
- it also punishes blobbing
- and adds aditional depth layer to ifantry vs tanks engagements

Where is the bad design you are talking about? I really fail to see.

Use blitz, then Axis tanks are good at crushing.
Or suppress squads with an hmg and crush them EZ.

Same thing could be said of Allied mediums, except Allied mediums also had the raw speed and maneuverability in the game to just roll right over infantry. It's just not right, especially considering that Axis tanks of equal speeds in some cases having a wider base would be more than capable of doing the same but were practically hard coded to not do so.

The thing that's nice about crushing is that it is an incredibly predictable way to deal with infantry, and has clear counters. You don't want to go buffing tank guns to deal with infantry better because that just adds more rng wipe potential. When a tank goes for a crush you can see how it is going to go, and you can decide whether to retreat or try to stay in and fight the tank. Getting up to point blank range make the tank very vulnerable to snares or AT infantry.

There is clear counterplay here. You can bait the crush into some great ambushes and if your infantry is ever significantly threatened, just instantly retreat. Crushing only punishes blobs and carelessness. It adds an interesting gameplay dynamic to tank usage that will be gone without it. Without crush you will only see tanks kiting and trying to rng wipe with the cannon at max range. Boring. Crushing is the perfect example of interesting gameplay that requires skill to utilize, and only punishes bad players. The game should not be changed to take out strategic depth and lower the skill ceiling.

in vcoh i played against guys who intentionally built m10s as counter against my knight cross.

yep, a pure AT tank was the best hardcounter against the most expensive infantry in game. the natural counter should ve been a crocodile (was literally never built) or MGs or something but m10s were better than all of that

therefore, crushing actually lowers strategic depth as it was nobrainer to get m10s

crushing is lame, abusive and stupid

nothing interisting gameplay here

Cromwell, M10, speed-bonuses (Combat Blitz, Emergency War speed), etc were stupid. However, I am of the opinion to fix the offending units/abilities first, rather than remove a mechanic that helps immersion, and is not too abusive.

However, if crush is to be removed, there need to be compensating nerfs to handheld AT. Some ideas here:
- Longer aiming times
- Radically increase reloading time while squad is moving (not sure if it is possible to implement)
- Reload/Accuracy/Damage penalty if squad is not behind cover when firing the gun.

No.
If it makes m10 or T34 bad, then they should be buffed instead of making them rely on cheese and rng to be useable.
Pinned infantry should still be crusheable though.

Why revert the change?

Axis mediums weren't ever very good at crushing, only really Allied tanks were. This puts both sides on the same ground.

This.

What makes you think it is a bad design? Actually it has all the charachteristics of good design:
- it needs skill to pull off
- it is extremely risky if you just yolo your tank into enemy, you have to think twice about all the odds

I don't think that it needs skill. Clicking 20 times per second into the direction of a squad is not skill in my opinion. Crush kills were not achieved by driving through/over a squad in 95% of the times. Instead it was just the models running into the side of the tank and dying. And this all was pure RNG and fucked up pathing.

In addition it is not risky in the mid game where the OKW player usually has about 1 Panzerschreck and a Raketenwerfer. With the crushing cheese you could prevent squads from shooting the Panzershreck simply because they were moving all the time and could not aim. Also Grens could not do anything because they might fire their Panzerfaust but it is useless because a full health Cromwell won't receive any motor damage. If the Cromwell was near your squad you had to retreat IMMEDIATELY in order to prevent your troops from being annihilated. Every AT gun near would then be annihilated because the support grens were gone.

As other players also mentioned I found it kind of not fair, that every Allied faction had a reliable crusher (M10, Cromwell, T34) while Axis didn't have a single one that was a bit of reliable. And don't start with "Axis tanks are better" because a Sherman or a Cromwell are not as significantly worse than a Panzer IV to justify killing a whole squad in a blink of an eye with that stupid crush bullshit.

crushing was fine but certain tanks wer OP at it (m10 and cromwell). If those 2 tanks wernt so effective at crushing, this "feature" would still be in the game

+1

Retreat blob>????>Crushing is no longer an issue

really if you lose your volk blob to a cromwell its your own fault

First they removed the OKW trucks crushing buildings,
I remained silent because I don't play OKW.

Then they removed the US planes crashing into Tigers,
I remained silent because I don't play US.

Now they removed the crushing ability of tanks,
and there is no one left to speak for the soviet player.

Seriously, I understand it's all for the good of competitive play, but there are many fun elements in the game that are being removed all the time ( like my dear B4 taking out two tigers at once... )

I don't think that it needs skill. Clicking 20 times per second into the direction of a squad is not skill in my opinion. Crush kills were not achieved by driving through/over a squad in 95% of the times. Instead it was just the models running into the side of the tank and dying. And this all was pure RNG and fucked up pathing.

In addition it is not risky in the mid game where the OKW player usually has about 1 Panzerschreck and a Raketenwerfer. With the crushing cheese you could prevent squads from shooting the Panzershreck simply because they were moving all the time and could not aim. Also Grens could not do anything because they might fire their Panzerfaust but it is useless because a full health Cromwell won't receive any motor damage. If the Cromwell was near your squad you had to retreat IMMEDIATELY in order to prevent your troops from being annihilated. Every AT gun near would then be annihilated because the support grens were gone.

As other players also mentioned I found it kind of not fair, that every Allied faction had a reliable crusher (M10, Cromwell, T34) while Axis didn't have a single one that was a bit of reliable. And don't start with "Axis tanks are better" because a Sherman or a Cromwell are not as significantly worse than a Panzer IV to justify killing a whole squad in a blink of an eye with that stupid crush bullshit.

Well, its enough to at nade twice or shoot the tank once with anything befor snaring. Also we are talking preview mod so okw has fausts in the same manner os has.