"Assymetrical" veterancy system

Well... idea is simple. Different veterancy systems worked nice in vCoH, it was really cool. One faction pays for veterancy of each type of units and pays a lot, other - getting veterancy from frags, one can decide between offensive or deffensive bouns...

Simple question - why not in CoH 2? It would work nice with factions design in CoH 2, I think. And it would hardly support general idea of "assymetrical balance".

Thoughts?

No, vet is one of the most important things in this game, you start messing with it, it goes downhill.

Current system is fair for everyone, don't re-invent the wheel here.

No, vet is one of the most important things in this game, you start messing with it, it goes downhill.

Current system is fair for everyone, don't re-invent the wheel here.

Well, we could adapt some ideas from vCoH here! For example - USSR could use old Wehrmacht system "pay-2-vet", cos USSR's units are weak, spammable and expendable. So - paying for their constant veterancy looks reasonable in that design.

UKF would get veterancy system from PElite, cos UKF is faction, which should choose between offensive or deffensive gameplay by sideteches, so they will have to choose also in their veterancy between offensive and defensive bonuses.

USF may use old UKF veterancy - stars from nearby Lieutenants. Instead of Lieutenants we can use current officiers - Lt., Cpt. and Major.

Guess it's very much possible to make good veterancy ideas for all other factions, so - I see no problems here.

Well... idea is simple. Different veterancy systems worked nice in vCoHThoughts?

It didn't.

The brit system was stupid. Super PIAT/Bren blob? No thank you.
The wehr system was stupid. Unit preservation? Why? Just make a new blob/tank army. That was horrible in larger team games.

The USF system was nice, and the PE system was rather cool. But don't fix what ain't broken.

It didn't.

The brit system was stupid. Super PIAT/Bren blob? No thank you.
The wehr system was stupid. Unit preservation? Why? Just make a new blob/tank army. That was horrible in larger team games.

The USF system was nice, and the PE system was rather cool. But don't fix what ain't broken.

Brit system was fine. Super blob could be easy punished by 1 lucky arty barrage - Lieutenants were fragile and costed a lot.

Wehr system was fine. It's very adaptable to USSR and their design. USSR is full of units like T-34-76, which relly not on "unit preservation". They are expendable, dying fast and work only in big numbers so - it's harder to get Vet 3 to T-34-76 by usual way - dying too fast. "Pay-2-vet" here looks ideal!

Anyway, we can always make here new ideas about possible veterancy systems, not only use old. That's more about idea itself - make in game more "assymetry" by making different veterancy systems. Guess, it would be better for game and for players, who like that.

And I wouldn't say, that it's not broken. For example - long time OKW has not resourse penalty, but still Vet 5 available... Why so? Who knows...

If they started to make differences in vet systems, adding 5 stars to OKW, then I don't see a problem to make something new to all other factions!

It didn't.

The brit system was stupid. Super PIAT/Bren blob? No thank you.
The wehr system was stupid. Unit preservation? Why? Just make a new blob/tank army. That was horrible in larger team games.

The USF system was nice, and the PE system was rather cool. But don't fix what ain't broken.

This, vet was one of the weakest aspects of CoH1. Wehr vet was ok in 1v1 but OP in team games, US vet was inconsistent (some units vet up very fast, others hardly ever get vet), brit vet very clunky, and PE vet system was good.

CoH2 system is better. It feels more consistent and lessens the whole 'X faction wins early, Y faction wins late' dynamic. The only problem is AT vetting up infantry at hyper speed, but there's nothing really to say about that that hasn't already been discussed many times.

It didn't.

The brit system was stupid. Super PIAT/Bren blob? No thank you.
The wehr system was stupid. Unit preservation? Why? Just make a new blob/tank army. That was horrible in larger team games.

The USF system was nice, and the PE system was rather cool. But don't fix what ain't broken.

Quoted for Truth!

The veterancy system in vCoH did not work right. At all.

The veterancy system of Brit/PE rewarded blobbing way too much; and what were those two factions known for? Blobbing is something to be discouraged.

Then, you have the extreme difficulty at attaining Vet for troops, since you actually needed to score a kill, and not simply damage the vehicle/infantry.

The only aspect of that system that I still consider somewhat interesting was the PE veterancy specialization. However, once you sat down and pulled the veil, you would really see that there is only one way of specializing your troops that really made sense (sort of like figuring out the optimal locations to lay down emplacements as the Brits; you only need to figure this out once). Thus, the cookiecutter combos were:
- All vehicles get defensive vet (for uber race-car speed)
- Close-range infantry get all defensive vet
- Everybody else gets full-offensive vet.

Customize vetenancy could add to the game but only if it was more complex then simple offensive defensive bonuses.

Prime examples are WFA engineer that can pick up LMG and AT weapons. These units should have very low repair speed and vet according to what upgrade they get. Weapon would give them fighting bonuses minesweepers repair speed bonuses and allow to vet via repairing.

CoH2 veterancy is one of the true improvements over the original game, as much as I like change, dont mess with it here.

Agreed that vCoH veterancy caused incredible problems. It looked cool when viewed superficially - I mean, 4 different veterancy systems! Nice!

But then you get into the game and encounter a Lt blob, unkillable captains, Wehrmacht medic bunkers turning cheap volksgrenadiers and pioneers into vet3 grenadiers for absolutely free.

Or, losing all that hard-won British veterancy to a single tank shot and suddenly you have vet0 Tommies facing off versus multiple G43 Panzergrenadiers with 2 or 3 levels of offensive veterancy.

Another example, US sniper got to move at full speed while cloaked at vet3. Wehr sniper didn't get that because of the way veterancy system works, every sniper would be vet3 sniper. Wehr bonuses were mostly defensive and even broken, for a long time support weapon veterancy was literally nonexistent (vet2 PaK : +20% hit points , vet2 57mm : +25% damage, +25% penetration, faster reload).

So yeah, if you want all this in coh2 because it "sounds cool" you should never be let near a game design ever because veterancy systems (of Wehr and Brits) were literally cancer.

vCoH wasn't great with the veterancy, actually it was quite a puddle garden mess.

If you prefer vCoH, go play vCoH. There is no need to make CoH2 more like vCoH, especially not veterancy, one of the few key areas of CoH2. They're different games, and please keep it that way!

Agreed that vCoH veterancy caused incredible problems. It looked cool when viewed superficially - I mean, 4 different veterancy systems! Nice!

But then you get into the game and encounter a Lt blob, unkillable captains, Wehrmacht medic bunkers turning cheap volksgrenadiers and pioneers into vet3 grenadiers for absolutely free.

Or, losing all that hard-won British veterancy to a single tank shot and suddenly you have vet0 Tommies facing off versus multiple G43 Panzergrenadiers with 2 or 3 levels of offensive veterancy.

Another example, US sniper got to move at full speed while cloaked at vet3. Wehr sniper didn't get that because of the way veterancy system works, every sniper would be vet3 sniper. Wehr bonuses were mostly defensive and even broken, for a long time support weapon veterancy was literally nonexistent (vet2 PaK : +20% hit points , vet2 57mm : +25% damage, +25% penetration, faster reload).

So yeah, if you want all this in coh2 because it "sounds cool" you should never be let near a game design ever because veterancy systems (of Wehr and Brits) were literally cancer.

Ok, cool. Let's admit then, that vCoH's veterancy systems sucked and idea itself was bad (personally I disagree, but whatever).

But, I guess it's still possible to make differences in veterancy of factions without using vCoHs experience, Im sure. Again - look at OKW and their Vet 5 system. That's different and it makes OKW more interesting faction because it's different not simply in some units, but in core mechanic!

Now question - can it be real to make such differences in all factions? They should be made with accepting of factions designes and specifics, like same Vet 5 was "low res income - bigger veterancy and quality". Why can't it be real to make assymetry in core mechanics, instead of making assymetry in each single unit, making some of them "broken" in procces.

I only think, that such innovation may make game more interesting and more exciting, nothing more. It's pretty boring, that all factions have same way of getting Exp, by "farming" your enemy, same 3 stars (except OKW, again), same getting spec-abilites at "vet 1"...

Ok, cool. Let's admit then, that vCoH's veterancy systems sucked and idea itself was bad (personally I disagree, but whatever).

But, I guess it's still possible to make differences in veterancy of factions without using vCoHs experience, Im sure. Again - look at OKW and their Vet 5 system. That's different and it makes OKW more interesting faction because it's different not simply in some units, but in core mechanic!

Now question - can it be real to make such differences in all factions? They should be made with accepting of factions designes and specifics, like same Vet 5 was "low res income - bigger veterancy and quality". Why can't it be real to make assymetry in core mechanics, instead of making assymetry in each single unit, making some of them "broken" in procces.

I only think, that such innovation may make game more interesting and more exciting, nothing more. It's pretty boring, that all factions have same way of getting Exp, by "farming" your enemy, same 3 stars (except OKW, again), same getting spec-abilites at "vet 1"...

What you are asking is for drastic changes to the game. The veterancy has been fine since day one so I don't see the reason for these changes.

Even though the OKW has five veterancy levels, it teaches players to conserve their forces for the big late-game results. It's a faction I have a mixed opinion about, but their concept makes me want to play them sometimes.

You also forget that reworking the veterancy of entire factions might be harder than it looks. Plus there are the factors of balance going to hell just for these simple changes and Relic's teams are focusing on Dawn of War III. So manpower wise, they would just leave the system as it is.

Ok, cool. Let's admit then, that vCoH's veterancy systems sucked and idea itself was bad (personally I disagree, but whatever).

Maybe I am just looking at coh1 through salt-tinted glasses .

But, I guess it's still possible to make differences in veterancy of factions without using vCoHs experience, Im sure. Again - look at OKW and their Vet 5 system. That's different and it makes OKW more interesting faction because it's different not simply in some units, but in core mechanic!

Oh, definitely! I agree 100%. What was wrong in CoH1 was that ways of obtaining veterancy were wildly different between factions and just so happened to promote some weird playstyles (blobbing). Whereas they should have just left that part alone and make it so veterancy was obtained more or less always through the unit gaining experience. But then they can make conceptual changes to veterancy effects and it would probably make for a richer game yet still be balanceable.

Maybe a faction where each units get a branching upgrade at vet1? E.G. Grenadier squad at vet1 can choose to get LMG42 (no ammo) OR a 5th man squad size upgrade (for that squad only).

Maybe a faction where vet3 gave no bonus over vet2, but the third star could be "spent" on a really powerful ability, different for each unit type? After using the ability the unit would revert to vet2 and could grind for the third star again and again...

Stuff like that.

Ok, your ideas are very cool. Go learn how to use modding tools, make a mod and play with your friends.

Stop enforcing your ideas. Almost everyone here is rejecting your suggestions and you're still insisting. If you truly want that, make a mod.

Ok, your ideas are very cool. Go learn how to use modding tools, make a mod and play with your friends.

Stop enforcing your ideas. Almost everyone here is rejecting your suggestions and you're still insisting. If you truly want that, make a mod.

+1

They shouldn't copy the veterancy from vCoH, because 2/4 factions vet was shit. But I would love to see some more diversity here. PE veterancy

It's too late though, they will never make such changes to CoH2. Just have to hope for more interesting vet in CoH3.

V/coh vet was garbage, take off those rose tinted googles.

V/coh vet was garbage, take off those rose tinted googles.

For God sake, why was it garbage!? It was interesting, worked good with faction mechanics and it was veeery nice balanced.

I don't understand people here. vCoH's veterancy was bad, uniqe interesting doctrines like Elite or SU Industry were bad, Coldtech was bad... Everything, that made that game interesting and cool is bad.

Because of you, CoH becomes more and more boring and similar to shitty korean Starcraft! What a hell are you doing!?

For God sake, why was it garbage!? It was interesting, worked good with faction mechanics and it was veeery nice balanced.

I don't understand people here. vCoH's veterancy was bad, uniqe interesting doctrines like Elite or SU Industry were bad, Coldtech was bad... Everything, that made that game interesting and cool is bad.

Because of you, CoH becomes more and more boring and similar to shitty korean Starcraft! What a hell are you doing!?

Brit veterancy was blobberific and Wehr veterancy didn't promote squad preservation. PE shared vet was blobby too, but the offensive/defensive was cool.

They were more interesting but they were NOT good with mechanics and not balanced. If they could do a redo of the vet systems so they were diverse without being complete horseshit it would be the best.