Bofors

A braced bofors takes almost 0% damage.

So you're still wrong. Unflankable and even if you do some amazing maneuvers with AT, it can still brace until it gets support.

It faces 360* but last I checked the gun can over cover 45* of that arc at a time, leaving it a blindside, yes?

If you're going to kibosh the only tactical solution not as "unrealistic", but rather outright impossible, without accepting at least the outside possibility of success, there isn't much more of a discussion I can have with you.

The gun spins on a dime, auto faces, and has no setup or teardown time.

It faces 360* but last I checked the gun can over cover 45* of that arc at a time, leaving it a blindside, yes?

If you're going to kibosh the only tactical solution not as "unrealistic", but rather outright impossible, without accepting at least the outside possibility of success, there isn't much more of a discussion I can have with you.

Show me 3 replays of you flanking a bofors. Vs an opponent of similar level. I don't think you can. I don't think you can put your money where your mouth is. I checked your playercard, it looks like you haven't played OKW in a long while. Is that right?




Feasibly you'd be able to attack from 3 places in a 180 arc (otherwise you're going to be behind it and retreating through it. Not an option)

A bofors will melt an infantry squad in 5-10 seconds. Let's say you have 3 Volks with shreks and a raketen. If you factor for misses, you're going to have to stand there for a minute, retreating a squad at a time as they get killed.

This is all including the fact that he will also have other units nearby.

Ultimately when you get it down to low health, it will brace. You retreat, he fixes.



I never said it was impossible but it is generally highly inefficient to attack a bofors with infantry.

Since I've come back to CoH2 I've been playing mainly 2v2 randoms. I'd say the majority of my game are verse double brits when I am playing as Axis. I play mainly OST as Axis.

I can deal with the bofors on the more open maps where I can avoid the bofor/mortar pit combo and drain their manpower down whilst holding onto a one VP. Once the late game OST power kicks I can more reliably hold onto a 2nd VP and potentially remove the bofor/mortar pit. Usually the opportunity comes as a result of good armour/pak40 positioning or mortars/panzerwerfer removing the British infantry threat.

On smaller sized maps & urban maps I believe I have lost almost every game. It is really tricky to deal with the constant pressure the bofor/mortar combination places down on OST. I am honestly stumped on how to deal with it verse double brits.

mortar halftrack is the best way, simply coz you dont have the reinforcement costs of the normal mortar and obviously, its mobile therefore you can repair it pretty easily. but you should invest in 2 at guns aswell in the beginning just in case of a light tank. 3 mortar HT are a good way to go, ive smashed 2 extreme turtle brits yesterday with that.

painful to play against, but thats another story... thx lelic for making sim city great again


oh, and you should use it as followed: mortar barrage all time with 3 mortar HT, when the barrage is on cooldown, use attack ground. after a while it should brace, after brace 1-2 fire barrages on the bofors/whatever emplacement. works all time. the only important question is: is there some other guy pushing you backwards from doing so. thats hard to achieve in random games.. thats why "MUH JUST GET MORTAR TO COUNTER SIM CITY" is a shitty way to say. coz you need the time to destroy the stupid emplacements

Lost another two in 2v2. Once the bofors was up in the first game, I made 3 ISGs and started hammering it, until he put up 3 mortars on the minsk pocket slightly in front of the bofors and my MP bleed started. Couldn't capture anything with out bleeding MP. Once their was a bofors on 2 of the VPs there was nothing that could be done.

Bofors penetrate both okw P4s andPanther frontal armour.

The second game was more of the same. They made a line of emplacements arcoss the map. Once they are dug in with everything, trying to get it out is damn near impossible.

You get caught in a postition where they get map control and it's held by completely static emplacments. Emplacments that they have to spend a great deal of resources to deal with even tho your getting less resources then them. and then the tanks start to come.

Well the problem with bofors is it's simply overperforming for it's cost. It's 30 fuel. Compare it with other 30 fuel assets. It's as simple as that. It has brace, high dps, anti vehicle, anti infantry and barrage. It can be crewed, repaired, cannot be decrewed, and offers huge synergy with other units like mortar pit + at gun, counters it's own counters, has attack ground and can choose targets, does not require micro and cannot be smoked.

Too much for too little cost.

Meanwhile the OKW Luftwaffe Flak gets decrewed by a single grenade. If static weapons are meant to take a hit, why are Brits the special snowflake that can brace? I would very much welcome a significant price increase to the Luftwaffe flak for the ability to stand nades and brace.

I think the origin of the troubles with emplacements are pretty simple.

Brace.

This ability is just BS incarnate, free, non doctrinal, with same downtime as uptime, 90% true damage reduction instant activated skill.

How the hell is such a concept tested and approved in a rts game? Theres simply no way of countering it, except looking at it go down for half a minute allowing the enemy brit to move their entire army to defend it and just repair it in your face at 0 cost.

The solution would be pretty simple, brace protects against arty barrages and explosives, not against direct assaults/fire. Would still make brace valuable for keeping emplacements in the game, but not make them indestructible 30 secs for free with no counterplay.

Show me 3 replays of you flanking a bofors. Vs an opponent of similar level. I don't think you can. I don't think you can put your money where your mouth is. I checked your playercard, it looks like you haven't played OKW in a long while. Is that right?

Feasibly you'd be able to attack from 3 places in a 180 arc (otherwise you're going to be behind it and retreating through it. Not an option)

A bofors will melt an infantry squad in 5-10 seconds. Let's say you have 3 Volks with shreks and a raketen. If you factor for misses, you're going to have to stand there for a minute, retreating a squad at a time as they get killed.

This is all including the fact that he will also have other units nearby.

Ultimately when you get it down to low health, it will brace. You retreat, he fixes.



I never said it was impossible but it is generally highly inefficient to attack a bofors with infantry.

You can excuse me for interpreting the remark "You cannot do x" as a statement of impossibility...

Haven't played OKW-- Haven't played CoH2-- at a level that could be considered competitive since November of last year, but this is not about my ability to execute a tactic. It would not be a very good solution if only a few people could execute it effectively. Your post illustrates "feasibly" in your words, a way that one would approach such a scenario, disregarding the teleological outcome. That's my point, attacking a Bofors emplacement requires one to come at it in multiple directions. In order to both take advantage of the emplacements blindside, and cause any supporting forces to shift, so they cannot concentrate their fire. It is the most efficient means of assault, even if that level of efficiency is effectively rather low. Consider the alternative-- running head long into it and inflicting approximately the square root of naught against your opponent at grave losses of your own.

You can excuse me for interpreting the remark "You cannot do x" as a statement of impossibility...

Haven't played OKW-- Haven't played CoH2-- at a level that could be considered competitive since November of last year, but this is not about my ability to execute a tactic. It would not be a very good solution if only a few people could execute it effectively. Your post illustrates "feasibly" in your words, a way that one would approach such a scenario, disregarding the teleological outcome. That's my point, attacking a Bofors emplacement requires one to come at it in multiple directions. In order to both take advantage of the emplacements blindside, and cause any supporting forces to shift, so they cannot concentrate their fire. It is the most efficient means of assault, even if that level of efficiency is effectively rather low. Consider the alternative-- running head long into it and inflicting approximately the square root of naught against your opponent at grave losses of your own.

Even if Bulgakov is being hyperbolic with his absolute word choice, there is still an issue with the power level of this unit if the only way to kill it is a fantastically executed multidirectional attack that will still lose you more in resources than the cost of the Bofors. They way in which he is describing it is generally how the situation plays out.

It’s not that the “level of efficiency is effectively rather low” it’s “every time you try to take this Bofors out it’s going to cost me drastically more resources than the cost of the Bofors.” Hell, most of the time walking into the Bofors sight for the first time will cost a Grenadier, Volks, or scout car. There is really no reason not to choose the Bofors, comparatively the AEC is nowhere near the power level and a teller with kill a full health unit most of the time.

Please post a replay of your “a fantastically executed multidirectional attack’s” success. Because, if it’s a L2P issue you should be able to easily put us in our place with a quick replay, but if that’s not the case, then we are dealing with a unit in the game that is drastically more efficient in it’s role than any other unit in the game.

It’s not that the “level of efficiency is effectively rather low” it’s “every time you try to take this Bofors out it’s going to cost me drastically more resources than the cost of the Bofors.” Hell, most of the time walking into the Bofors sight for the first time will cost a Grenadier, Volks, or scout car. There is really no reason not to choose the Bofors, comparatively the AEC is nowhere near the power level and a teller with kill a full health unit most of the time.

Alright. I am just going to step in here and say that this is absolutely false.

Meanwhile the OKW Luftwaffe Flak gets decrewed by a single grenade. If static weapons are meant to take a hit, why are Brits the special snowflake that can brace? I would very much welcome a significant price increase to the Luftwaffe flak for the ability to stand nades and brace.

The 2cm flak can under no circumstances ever be as potent as the bofors. This is simply due to faction design. To get a bofors, one must sacrifice the AEC, and with it, the only aggressive AT tool that they have up until medium tanks. You can outmaneuver and cap around Bofors. Against a very aggressive emplacement user that has placed the emplacement far forward. You can even baserush the enemy and kill him with an all-in type strategy since it only has machine guns to defend; though this latter strategy is only really available for OKW.

The OKW flak 2cm has none of the weaknesses associated with the Bofors. OKW has shrecks(soon also snares), the puma and the Luchs. Their base is also defended by 2cm flak guns that defend well against light vehicles. If the 2cm flak would be like the bofors, you could just plop one down on one side of the map and focus all your attention elsewhere with no fear of enemy light vehicles pushing off the map and killing you.

Even if Bulgakov is being hyperbolic with his absolute word choice, there is still an issue with the power level of this unit if the only way to kill it is a fantastically executed multidirectional attack that will still lose you more in resources than the cost of the Bofors. They way in which he is describing it is generally how the situation plays out.

It’s not that the “level of efficiency is effectively rather low” it’s “every time you try to take this Bofors out it’s going to cost me drastically more resources than the cost of the Bofors.” Hell, most of the time walking into the Bofors sight for the first time will cost a Grenadier, Volks, or scout car. There is really no reason not to choose the Bofors, comparatively the AEC is nowhere near the power level and a teller with kill a full health unit most of the time.

Please post a replay of your “a fantastically executed multidirectional attack’s” success. Because, if it’s a L2P issue you should be able to easily put us in our place with a quick replay, but if that’s not the case, then we are dealing with a unit in the game that is drastically more efficient in it’s role than any other unit in the game.

I was not arguing it was an "L2P Issue", we all know it's a challenge to take these things down. I'm saying it's not impossible, and also requires a change in your overall strategy referring to my previous post (#57). The broader point of my argument was missed when Bulgakov decided to off handily and rather contemptuously scrutinize the tactics in assaulting a Bofors, whilst knowing full well how effective it is... maybe he has a problem with me... Ideally, you play so you never have to face it. A commander should either A. prevent the Bofors being constructed in dangerous areas, or B. play around it, and the second option almost guarantees as much success as a frontal assault, as you and many members in this thread keep saying. In the circumstances that you are forced to fight it, recognize it's an uphill fight and there are only a handful of tactics available to destroy it IE. flanking, IF you haven't properly controlled space against a British Commander.

I think the origin of the troubles with emplacements are pretty simple.

Brace.

This ability is just BS incarnate, free, non doctrinal, with same downtime as uptime, 90% true damage reduction instant activated skill.

How the hell is such a concept tested and approved in a rts game? Theres simply no way of countering it, except looking at it go down for half a minute allowing the enemy brit to move their entire army to defend it and just repair it in your face at 0 cost.

The solution would be pretty simple, brace protects against arty barrages and explosives, not against direct assaults/fire. Would still make brace valuable for keeping emplacements in the game, but not make them indestructible 30 secs for free with no counterplay.

Brace working for only Artillery (which is extremely rare Early-Mid game) and Explosives (Even more Rare)? Wouldn't that be, in otherwords, pointless?

If this was to be done, two things need to be taken into consideration:

1) The Bofors is the only form of reliable AT Brits get early apart from the AEC (the faction's ONLY non-doctrinal Snare). Picking Bofors locks out the AEC. If Brace has no defensive applications, you will need to provide an equally effective AT Solution for the point it hits.

If the Balance patch hits as is, this is going to be twice as bad, with OKW having all its multitude of T0 AT Options invalidating Light/Medium/Heavy Vehicle play.

2) Losing Brace would mean British Emplacements would vaporise fast. They would need a Health increase/Armour increase to compensate for this.

I can´t believe people are still defending brace. SolidSteel was on point. It is a get out of jail free card. No skill involved. Invincibility when you got caught with your pants down.

Its possible to remove it. Tier 0-2 would need to be re-examined, and a few changes made. Viable early AT options, Health/Armour buffs for Emplacements, an actual AT Snare...

Probably would need to move Royal Engineers to T0.

You still have piats as early anti tank gun. Yet I agree its less powerfull than a real at gun, but the bofor in its current state is clearly a game breaker for its cost effecient and health ratio... in early-mid game

The amount of over-exaggeration in this thread is absolutely ridiculous.

First of all, Bofors CANNOT penetrate P4s and Panthers from the front. You're probably not paying attention to an AT gun or a PIAT, as it's not the bofors doing the damage.

Second, mortar/ISG spam + flak truck/MGs is harder to deal with for the British than it is for OKW to deal with bofors and mortar emplacements. While ISGs and mortars can move (you can even reinforce them with a half track which you will inevitably buy for the flame upgrade) mortar emplacements can't and you're GUARANTEED to hit the mortar emplacement because it's a building and its hitbox is so large. Not to mention, mortar emplacements have god awful accuracy in return for firing two at a time, so a well-micro'ed mortar/ISG pair is much much more efficient than the mortar emplacement.

I don't think you guys realize the emplacement costs a whopping 400mp to build. If you invested the same amount in ISG/mortar you can easily counter emplacements. Furthermore, brace isn't an overpowered ability, when you use it your buildings do not function, and you cannot cancel it either. Literally all you have to do is build 2 mortars, bombard the bofors, when the bofors braces, send in your flame half track and destroy it.

Finally, emplacements, once they're gone, they're gone forever. Mortars and ISG you can recrew. Bofors costs 280mp + 30 fuel, with the mortar emplacement costing 400mp, once you break the bofors it's pretty much GG for the British player.

as much as i hate to admit it brace in a needed feature for brit emplacements or it will be way to easy to take out emplacements. BUT the emplacements cause the most frustrating game play experience i have ever had in coh2, its far worse then anything else like volkblobs or other crap.

@johnk419, stop talking out of your rear, bofors pens both p4 and panthers frontal Armour and from my experience, emplacements is far worse then OKW buildings, ISG's and motors. The only issue with these emplacements is on small maps or in team games where they just get spammed.

I am not saying emplacements are OP or anything but it causes very frustrating game play experience and some solutions for the time being can be cost increases or build limits.

as much as i hate to admit it brace in a needed feature for brit emplacements or it will be way to easy to take out emplacements. BUT the emplacements cause the most frustrating game play experience i have ever had in coh2, its far worse then anything else like volkblobs or other crap.

@johnk419, stop talking out of your rear, bofors pens both p4 and panthers frontal Armour and from my experience, emplacements is far worse then OKW buildings, ISG's and motors. The only issue with these emplacements is on small maps or in team games where they just get spammed.

I am not saying emplacements are OP or anything but it causes very frustrating game play experience and some solutions for the time being can be cost increases or build limits.

You stop talking out of your rear, the bofors cannot penetrate P4 and Panther's frontal armor. Go test it out yourself. It might have less than 5% chance of penning, which is nowhere near reliable enough to be considered a threat. It would take like 5 minutes for a bofors to kill a P4 if the bofors were to be invincible.