Maxim Post-Patch

So what is everybody's thoughts on the Maxim after the most recent patch? For reference the patch made the changes below.

* Set-up from 1.5 to 2.
* Build-time from 24 seconds to 28 seconds.
* Cost from 240 manpower to 260.

My experience so far is that the nerfs accomplished the stated goal of stopping maxims from replacing mainline infantry and generally being A-moving nuisances (which I think most people who aren't hardcore Soviet fanboys would agree needed changed). From my experience the set-up time feels good and makes the Maxim vulnerable to flanking to an appropriate degree but the trademark Relic triple-nerf of adding the cost increase feels like a bit much as I always felt like the set-up time was the largest contributor to the effectiveness of Maxim spam. (Especially when you add on the increased production time nerf as well which further limits spam)

I don't feel like Maxims really perform at a 260 MP level either given the narrow fire cone, increased set-up time, and death-loop which all make the cost kind of unappealing. Granted its still a pretty good unit and nowhere near as bad as the "useless Maxim" of olden days but I'd still argue that the cost should be reverted to 240MP.

So what is everybody's thoughts on the Maxim after the most recent patch?

it needed its spam BS gone.

but typical relic comes in with a nerf bazooka and destroys it.

I never spammed them so i cant say something about that. I still like them and am still using them but Relic HAS to fix the death loop sh..!
It is very annoying to loose a 5-6 man maxim because of this.

If they fix the death loop I'll be happy with its current state.

My experience so far is that the nerfs accomplished the stated goal of stopping maxims from replacing mainline infantry and generally being A-moving nuisances.

= Von IvanFace (no space)

Turn Maxim into MG-42 - Maxim spam will be stopped. Done.

happily pay 260 if death loop is gone

I've always found that the thing with Maxims was that they were cost effective to reinforce. Point is, they are/were cheaper to reinforce than conscripts, which made hard to justify the 'cheap, expendable' conscripts with merge.

Also, maxim spam was effective against OKW because conscripts are just awful against sturms and volks. Penal battalions more often than not are just asking to be rolled by Luchs. I wager if the sniper team or scout car had been swapped with the maxim in T1 and T2 there would not have been the kind of maxim spam we'd been seeing. (Essentially maxim starts didn't require [back]teching for ZiS.)

The issue with maxims has always been an issue of Soviet teching and doctrine design than with the unit itself. The maxim can certainly be made to be less and less cost effective, but that's technically reducing an already limited selection of viable strategies.

Hopefully the patch and the beta preview will help clarify.

I love it. There is a lot less "only soviet" maxim spam trolls.

Everybody concerned about "death loop" should consider buying medics. It happens only if all crewmen are low on health or maxim is totally out of position facing a blob.

Everybody concerned about "death loop" should consider buying medics. It happens only if all crewmen are low on health or maxim is totally out of position facing a blob.

Eh, medics are kind of a moot point seeing as how Soviets only have healing in-base. It's not practical at all to retreat back to base just to heal wounded models. Keep in mind that HMG function is to hold territory... retreating to heal just isn't an option a lot of time (albeit prudent at times). It's especially problematic with units like HMGs, Kubels, and Flame nades where the scatter damage will ding up a lot of models and set you up death loop regardless of what you do.

Eh, medics are kind of a moot point seeing as how Soviets only have healing in-base. It's not practical at all to retreat back to base just to heal wounded models. Keep in mind that HMG function is to hold territory... retreating to heal just isn't an option a lot of time (albeit prudent at times). It's especially problematic with units like HMGs, Kubels, and Flame nades where the scatter damage will ding up a lot of models and set you up death loop regardless of what you do.

Well, if there is only one you can say that it is "holding ground" but usually you have more and one can shoot while the other is healing. Maxim models are blazingly cheap but in it's still worth it to heal them, even for that 15mp per model or just not to loose a squad do death loop. Also you generally just cant play a 1v1 without buying medics. In 2v2 and up you can soft retreat to usf ambulance or even get healed in place by tommies.

Agreed. I think the set up time nerf and and build time was enough and maxims are in a good spot now.

The increased price to 260mp wasn't really necessary but its only 20mp so not that big a deal.

Everybody concerned about "death loop" should consider buying medics. It happens only if all crewmen are low on health or maxim is totally out of position facing a blob.

Wrong.
It happens every single time there is more then one squad shooting at maxim, a pair of obers can just frontally assault it, it won't shoot back, it won't run away, because gunner will constantly get gunned down.

Everybody concerned about "death loop" should consider buying medics. It happens only if all crewmen are low on health or maxim is totally out of position facing a blob.

A burst from a LMG42 can gun down a full health maxim model quite easily with the extra received accuracy that team models have.

On topic: I think the newly balanced maxims are balanced quite alright. Like any other HMG, you can still A-move the unit and it will still be successful against opponents who are not paying attention. However, just as with other HMGs, an attentive player now has the time to dodge the arc.

Everybody concerned about "death loop" should consider buying medics. It happens only if all crewmen are low on health or maxim is totally out of position facing a blob.

It can happen against just against one tank making one good shot with a vetted infantry squad nearby, really. Not always, but like mine RNG...fucking awful when it is.

Wrong.
It happens every single time there is more then one squad shooting at maxim, a pair of obers can just frontally assault it, it won't shoot back, it won't run away, because gunner will constantly get gunned down.

Thats exactly what I ment under "being out of position", if unsupported mg happens to be attacked by double obers it won't win and usually won't escape, whether it is maxim, .50 or vickers.

Death loop removed, everything fine.

Thats exactly what I ment under "being out of position", if unsupported mg happens to be attacked by double obers it won't win and usually won't escape, whether it is maxim, .50 or vickers.

There isn't really such thing as out of position.
There isn't green cover at all times for it to hide behind and whatever right clicks it, makes it unable to retreat.

You can't "counter" death loop, because there is nothing that would prevent or mitigate it.

And by the way, vickers and .50 cal teleport to another squad member, just like HMG42 and 34.

#themoreyouknow

There isn't really such thing as out of position.
There isn't green cover at all times for it to hide behind and whatever right clicks it, makes it unable to retreat.

You can't "counter" death loop, because there is nothing that would prevent or mitigate it.

And by the way, vickers and .50 cal teleport to another squad member, just like HMG42 and 34.

#themoreyouknow

Ofc it teleports, but it doesn't have 6 men and .50cal also has +25% received accurancy. Also you don't need double obers to wipe a maxim that is not setup in green cover, one or 2 rifle nades, depending on spacing, are enough. And it's completely fine becouse you should keep your mgs healthy and in green cover.