30muni mine balance

Leaving my opinions here in the form of changes I've already completed:

Mines (General-Purpose and Tellers)

Reducing the amount of RNG involved as 30 munition is too cheap for the chance of killing a vehicle's engine. Tellers lost the chance as well due to their higher damage. Mines also deal less damage to infantry to prevent one-hitting full squads. In exchange, they deal suppression to help halt pushes or assaults on the flanks.

-Removed the chance to deal heavy engine damage.
-Deals 35% of normal damage against infantry for 70 damage leaving full health models at 10 health. (General-Purpose)
-Deals suppression on squads hit by mines. (General-Purpose)

Leaving my opinions here in the form of changes I've already completed:

Mines (General-Purpose and Tellers)

Reducing the amount of RNG involved as 30 munition is too cheap for the chance of killing a vehicle's engine. Tellers lost the chance as well due to their higher damage. Mines also deal less damage to infantry to prevent one-hitting full squads. In exchange, they deal suppression to help halt pushes or assaults on the flanks.

-Removed the chance to deal heavy engine damage.
-Deals 35% of normal damage against infantry for 70 damage leaving full health models at 10 health. (General-Purpose)
-Deals suppression on squads hit by mines. (General-Purpose)

This change would make the Soviet Defense Commander look powerful, their 5 muni mines are guaranteed for at least 1 model kill, so a cluster of them (6 for 30 muni) would deal more damage and still faster to deploy

If you mean to nerf the 30 muni mines of OKW and Soviet, this has to be nerfed too

Mines have been the same since the beginning of the game. Relic loves leaving in bullshit squadwipe RNG in the game so that mentally retarded players can win every once in a while through luck. It's the magic the gathering of RTS.

They should really make a counter to these op mines. I would fo as far as to make them cost the same but to reduce saturation of mine counters Locke them to engineer type units... Oh wai thay exists. Mines arw 100% counterable, try using their counter (minesweepers). You may fimd tanks op if you refuses to build at as well but I suppose thats how the game goes...

Nerf maxims and their mines?

Fuck, USSR will literally have nothing left worth using.

The use of soviet engineers is absolutely nessisary to compensate for their weak infantry.

But hey, lets nerf whatever counters the a-moving volksblob.

Is it so hard to have a minesweeper?

Nerf maxims and their mines?

Fuck, USSR will literally have nothing left worth using.

The use of soviet engineers is absolutely nessisary to compensate for their weak infantry.

But hey, lets nerf whatever counters the a-moving volksblob.

Is it so hard to have a minesweeper?

Tell that to a lone squad sent to do some capturing harassment only to be exploded because they aren't equipped with a minesweeper.

Also, pretty sure even OKW schu mines which are clones of TM-35s shouldn't one hit a full guard squad like seen here which starts at 1:10.

In fact, a blob is probably more effective against mines simply because the sweeper can protect all the models moving together where as squads trying to flank or spread out to attack across an extended front are the most at risk to being exploded. AKA the micro squad is more likely to die outright than unmicroed.

Guards suffer a lot more from retarded things like free mortar hits or unkillbale sniper. If one dont sweep actively he deserve to lose his models of guards.

Actualy 30 muni mine and risk of putting it worth more than 2-3 models of volks. Maybe make it as teller 50 muni for guaranteed wipe.

It's just so goddamn annoying sometimes that you run into a 30 muni mine with a vet 3 or higher unit without a proper counter to it.

Get a minesweeper.

Going through open ground, hitting a mine and losing whole squad is really painful but what's wrong with mining doors? It's a tactcis and it has counterplay. If you know or suspect there is a mine at the door, why would you exit there bere sweeping?

Get a minesweeper.

i dont think he knows that word. Double-mortar-micro into KT-skill is our way to play

Get a minesweeper.

Aah this reaction is so 2014. At some point you can't have 3 sweepers on all the sides of the map. Unfortunatly for you all my pio's of RE got sweepers as soon as possible. This doesn't mean that you can cover the whole map. Sometimes you want to try to flank and also calculating some risk of mines, but getting a full squad killed by a 30 muni mine is then pretty fucked up. The investment is too less to get that much effect. Same can occure with trip wire flares or S-mines.

Leaving my opinions here in the form of changes I've already completed:

Mines (General-Purpose and Tellers)

Reducing the amount of RNG involved as 30 munition is too cheap for the chance of killing a vehicle's engine. Tellers lost the chance as well due to their higher damage. Mines also deal less damage to infantry to prevent one-hitting full squads. In exchange, they deal suppression to help halt pushes or assaults on the flanks.

-Removed the chance to deal heavy engine damage.
-Deals 35% of normal damage against infantry for 70 damage leaving full health models at 10 health. (General-Purpose)
-Deals suppression on squads hit by mines. (General-Purpose)

I like the changes, but I still have one concern about them: some factions have squads that can heal-on-the field without having to retreat. This change would give these factions an advantage.

Like, if I don't have a minesweeper, I will send my self-healing squads first. If they hit a mine, I will keep them around to heal, and I will have my squad back to full-health without having to retreat.

What I am thinking of are:
- Tommies medic packs
- Volks passive healing ability
- Sturmpioneer ability
- Grenadier medic pack (yes, it's not useful now, but it could become useful if mines don't kill models)
- Some elite infantry get passive healing (commandos, airborne etc)

Would it be possible to make the mine score a critical on the squad, so that 1-2 models of the squad still die?

<snip>

In fact, a blob is probably more effective against mines simply because the sweeper can protect all the models moving together where as squads trying to flank or spread out to attack across an extended front are the most at risk to being exploded. AKA the micro squad is more likely to die outright than unmicroed.

A blob will always have a minesweeper with them. Lone squads/flanking squads will barely ever have.

It would make infiltration units way too powerfull.

I had the same concern, and I completely agree. However, Miragefla addresses this by restricting infiltration units to only spawn in friendly territory. Thus, no door-mining will be required.

Hopefully both changes will eventually make it to the game.

30 muni mines are totally fine as they are. It's like it always was, "Mines win games," since CoH1.

Tell that to a lone squad sent to do some capturing harassment only to be exploded because they aren't equipped with a minesweeper.

Also, pretty sure even OKW schu mines which are clones of TM-35s shouldn't one hit a full guard squad like seen here which starts at 1:10.

In fact, a blob is probably more effective against mines simply because the sweeper can protect all the models moving together where as squads trying to flank or spread out to attack across an extended front are the most at risk to being exploded. AKA the micro squad is more likely to die outright than unmicroed.

Isn't that the entire point of mines though, to mitigate harassment of flanks/attack of flanks?

I had the same concern, and I completely agree. However, Miragefla addresses this by restricting infiltration units to only spawn in friendly territory. Thus, no door-mining will be required.

Hopefully both changes will eventually make it to the game.

But what is the point of even having infiltration units in the game then? IMO someone who parks his katyusha or his sniper near ambient building should be punished, especially that currently opponent risks infiltration squad when spawning. So it is a dynamic that goes 2 way, a hard decision. And coh2 lacks such decisions, sadly miragefla solution takes one of them out of the game without giving anything in return, making gameplay flatter.

But what is the point of even having infiltration units in the game then? IMO someone who parks his katyusha or his sniper near ambient building should be punished, especially that currently opponent risks infiltration squad when spawning. So it is a dynamic that goes 2 way, a hard decision. And coh2 lacks such decisions, sadly miragefla solution takes one of them out of the game without giving anything in return, making gameplay flatter.

There are enough maps with so much ambient buildings that you really can't mine any entrance, so there are always maps where you can choose a commander with infiltration troops + if your opponent spents the time and ammunition to mine the entrances on maps with a lower count of building this is already a ressource and micro win for you. Let them emerge from a safe building on your part of the map or call them from the side of the map if they are worth it. Mines are the only thing that keeps infiltration units from beeing massively op. Compare infiltration to USF falls or glider commandos, this is a fair implementation of calling units directly to a point on the map.

But what is the point of even having infiltration units in the game then? IMO someone who parks his katyusha or his sniper near ambient building should be punished, especially that currently opponent risks infiltration squad when spawning. So it is a dynamic that goes 2 way, a hard decision. And coh2 lacks such decisions, sadly miragefla solution takes one of them out of the game without giving anything in return, making gameplay flatter.

You can still use infiltration units to deter opponents blitzing through your lines, in the same way you would use mines to make the opponent think twice. However, unlike mines, the opponent has to be painfully aware that no minesweeper can help them detect infiltration units before the smpawn.

Having said that, I could rephrase your own question and ask you the same. Why should somebody be rewarded if a map happens to be infested with buildings, small-or-large, shacks/whatever, when they, themselves have to make no effort (nor forethought) to pull off a flank?

Without door-mines (which are evil, but are way too expensive for city-maps), what manner of counterplay would be possible for the infiltration-victim?

EDIT:

An alternative to restricting infiltration units like that would be to reduce their initial offensive capabilities for 30-ish seconds.
- All infiltration squads spawn with crappy weapons, and require the player to purchase a (free) upgrade before the squads can use their main weapons (something that would take 30 secs to upgrade)
- All abilities of infiltration squads start on a 30-sec coolodown (Gamon bombs, stun nades, panzerfausts)
- The infiltration units that don't currently get stealth at Vet0, get a very rudimentary version of stealth that only works when they are stationary in cover.

The idea is that spawning from enemy territory will still be possible, but now it will actually require some forethought (or a -VERY- campy enemy).

Isn't that the entire point of mines though, to mitigate harassment of flanks/attack of flanks?

At the moment mines and demo charges do way more than simply mitigate enemy flanking maneuvers. They often eliminate them completely.

30 muni mines are totally fine as they are. It's like it always was, "Mines win games," since CoH1.

Mines didnt wipe vet 3 rifle or vet 3 KCH if I re-call correctly.

At the moment mines and demo charges do way more than simply mitigate enemy flanking maneuvers. They often eliminate them completely.

Which is the risk you take to flank without a minesweeper.. could kill 1 model or entire squad, welcome to the RNG which is part of literally everything in this game.