Idea for Penals

Combat engie price changed to free?
Because they are the worst of all engie type units and without demos they will also have faaar less use (just mines/sweeping and repair)
all others have SOME use:
sturms can fight and lay med supplies, speedy repair, put away sweeper, mines, harder wire.
Ost pios can build and increased spotting.
Rears can build fighting positions (and fire nades), weapon upgrades, volley fire.
Sappers build hella sh!t, combat efficiency, great vet, weapon racks, armour + lmg upgrade....

The only thing unique to combat engies is demos....

Combat engies are fine even without demo charges. They are cheaper than Pioneers and more effective in most combat situations because their rifles actually do damage outside of the 5 meter mark.

All this pissing and moaning for buffs on what is probably the strongest faction in the game is saddening.

That's a simple tuning pack I put together to test changes to Soviet T1. Play the AI or grab a friend and try out some T1 modified Guards action.

I like the concept of giving Sov a mainline scaling infantry but Guards in T1 leaves alot of rework in doctrines to accommodate them - not saying Sov wouldn't be a better faction for it just alot of stuff would need changing.

How about the following;
Remove flamer upgrade
Penals start with Guard mosin lites as you propose
Penals get the con doc PTRS upgrade instead of cons
Penals get a 3 SVT upgrade with a buffed m1 profile

That way;
Guards stay useful & don't need changes, and Penals don't clash with Guards when upgraded
No clash with engie flamer upgrade
Penals can give LR support with their mosins to a con meat shield early or later backing up shocks
Penals can give good mid range damage with a con screen in the event of no doc infantry
Penals need cons or something for at nades.
T1 with PTRS docs is interesting

I find that Penal Battalions work well in a doctrinal sense. They weren't exactly the backbone of the Soviet Army to begin with, and in CoH2 they don't actually function as such either.

Yeah its pretty daft, a specialised doc Penal squad geared up around fortification / garrison removal is pretty cool & you can pick the doc well when theres fortifications and garrisons that need removing. Having mainline kindof leaves it hard countered by anyone who doesn't build fortifications

Maybe I was not clear enough having flat weapons profiles does not make weapons bad, it makes small arm fire fight "bad" and that is why weapon profiles where introduced.

Wanting to equip a "Soviet" unit with "USF" weapon ignores faction design. Riflemen have a very good weapon and great weapon upgrade because the whole faction is designed around them, so giving the same weapon to a Soviet squad is not necessarily a good idea.

Trying to "fix" SVT by increasing the far DPS is actually turning into a better version of guards Mosin, (the number you suggested are close that weapon at range above 15 far better closer) so:

(why edit a weapon to much a weapon that already exist in game when these 2 weapons use different weapon profiles?)


You would end up with a Penal squad with around 30% more DPS the riflemen at VET3 so:


The are around 6 different version of the M1 in the game, with different properties...so its probably as common as other weapons...

Weapon profiles a great improvement in COH2 and Relic should try to follow them a much as possible. If Penals need to become a long range unit they should use the bolt action Mosin...

why shouldn't the penal get a good weapon? It's clear from their flamethrower upgrade that they are meant for killing infantry. It's clear the the penal lack the versatility of line infantry like rifleman or conscript, so the penal should be a dedicated anti-infantry unit.

Line infantry like the conscript and rifleman are versatile because they are expected to face all manner of threats and be able to contribute in any situation. The conscript's versatility is not the problem, the penal's lack of strength is the problem.

The penal have better offensive veterancy than the rifleman, while the rifleman have better defensive veterancy. Don't just complain about the penal's advantages over the rifleman and ignore the advantages the rifleman have over the penal.

and there's only 3 variants of m1 garand in use in multiplayer. the m1 garands used by the rifleman, the m1 garand used by the weapon crew, and the scoped m1 garand used by the pathfinder.

The weapons used by the ranger, rear echelon, and paratroopers are called m1 carbine. I would't use the term "m1 garand" to refer to the m1 carbine because that's grossly inaccurate. The m1 carbine was a different weapon developed by a different person working at a different company.

Seeing as how the rifleman make up the bulk of USF's, their m1 garand's are easily the most commonly seen semi-auto rifle.

the guard mosin is such a non-factor in the game they are not worth mentioning. guards are always going to be upgraded with the dp-28.

Guards stay useful & don't need changes, and Penals don't clash with Guards when upgraded

guards and penal have never clashed. The guard is a generalist unit while the penal is anti-infantry. Even if the satchel get a snared effect, the PTRS and dp-28 still make the guard distinct from the penal.

That's a simple tuning pack I put together to test changes to Soviet T1. Play the AI or grab a friend and try out some T1 modified Guards action.

the problem I see with the idea is that the guard doesn't need changes, and as I used before guards and penal are different enough that such changes are unnecessary.

Remove Penals
Add Commissar to Tier 1 instead
Give the satchel charge to Engineers
Give Conscripts an upgrade that replaces their Mosins with SVTs

Hire me now relic

Remove Penals
Add Commissar to Tier 1 instead
Give the satchel charge to Engineers
Give Conscripts an upgrade that replaces their Mosins with SVTs

Hire me now relic

Hmmm
Would the svt upgrade be all 6? Would it be allowed with PPsh upgrade?
I know g43s and lmg42 are mutually exclusive but that was because it synergised very well (long range lmg and short range semi auto) where as both for cons woukd just buff close mid a bit more... But then we lack constancy... Idk

Also small cost increase for CE (10MP?)
SVT package a side grade in t1

why shouldn't the penal get a good weapon?

I never claimed that they should not have a good weapon. On the other hand why do they need a weapon that does not follow weapon profiles and it is good at all ranges?

If they need far DPS they should use a bolt action rifle or LMG
If they need a mid DPS weapon they should use a semi automatic
If they need a close weapon they should use SMG

If they need to able to upgrade and fulfil different roles they should change weapons.

It's clear from their flamethrower upgrade... It's clear the the penal lack the versatility...

flamer mean anti garrison...
I don't necessary mean anti-infantry, it could mean that they need more utility or more roles...

Line infantry like the conscript and rifleman are versatile because they are expected to face all manner of threats and be able to contribute in any situation. The conscript's versatility is not the problem, the penal's lack of strength is the problem.

Soviet have access to loads of call-in infantry, making them stronger will simply have to increase their price and compete with the call-in infantry...

...and ignore the advantages the rifleman have over the penal.

Already answered this:

Riflmen 5*80/0.97= 412
Penal 6*80*1= 480 16% more EHP...
VET 3
Riflmen 5*80/(0.97*0.77*0.80)= 669 7% more EHP
Penal 6*80*/0.77= 623
Happy now?

...I would't use the term "m1 garand" to refer to the m1 carbine because that's grossly inaccurate. ..
Seeing as how the rifleman make up the bulk of USF's, their m1 garand's are easily the most commonly seen semi-auto rifle.
/quote]
Actually you used the term: "the m1 garand, the most common semi-auto rifle (carbine) in the game" but that weather M1 is most commonly use semi automatic rifle has little to do with Penals...

why shouldn't the penal get a good weapon?

I never claimed that they should not have a good weapon. On the other hand why do they need a weapon that does not follow weapon profiles and it is good at all ranges?

If they need far DPS they should use a bolt action rifle or LMG
If they need a mid DPS weapon they should use a semi automatic
If they need a close weapon they should use SMG

If they need to able to upgrade and fulfil different roles they should change weapons.

It's clear from their flamethrower upgrade... It's clear the the penal lack the versatility...

flamer mean anti garrison...
I don't necessary mean anti-infantry, it could mean that they need more utility or more roles...

Line infantry like the conscript and rifleman are versatile because they are expected to face all manner of threats and be able to contribute in any situation. The conscript's versatility is not the problem, the penal's lack of strength is the problem.

Soviet have access to loads of call-in infantry, making them stronger will simply have to increase their price and compete with the call-in infantry...

...and ignore the advantages the rifleman have over the penal.

Already answered this:

Riflmen 5*80/0.97= 412
Penal 6*80*1= 480 16% more EHP...
VET 3
Riflmen 5*80/(0.97*0.77*0.80)= 669 7% more EHP
Penal 6*80*/0.77= 623
Happy now?

...I would't use the term "m1 garand" to refer to the m1 carbine because that's grossly inaccurate. ..
Seeing as how the rifleman make up the bulk of USF's, their m1 garand's are easily the most commonly seen semi-auto rifle.

Actually you used the term: "the m1 garand, the most common semi-auto rifle (carbine) in the game" but if weather M1 is most commonly use semi automatic rifle has little to do with Penals...

I never claimed that they should not have a good weapon. On the other hand why do they need a weapon that does not follow weapon profiles and it is good at all ranges?

If they need far DPS they should use a bolt action rifle or LMG
If they need a mid DPS weapon they should use a semi automatic
If they need a close weapon they should use SMG

Ok

Rifleman M1 does 25% of its 0 DPS @ 35
Gen G43 does 22% of its 0 DPS @ 35
PG G43 does 23% of its 0 DPS @ 35
PF G43 does 22% of its 0 DPS @ 35
Penal SVT does 13% of its 0 DPS @ 35

Spot the out of trend semi auto rifle.

Ok

Rifleman M1 does 25% of its 0 DPS @ 35
Gen G43 does 22% of its 0 DPS @ 35
PG G43 does 23% of its 0 DPS @ 35
PF G43 does 22% of its 0 DPS @ 35
Penal SVT does 13% of its 0 DPS @ 35

Spot the out of trend semi auto rifle.

Does this account for squad sizes? Becasue the extra model worth of damage and slower dps attrition from loses should also be considered

Does this account for squad sizes? Becasue the extra model worth of damage and slower dps attrition from loses should also be considered

It's a % so independent of size.

Normalised to 22% an svt would do 1.3 dps @ 35. Guards do 1.4 so it's in the right ballpark.

Does this account for squad sizes? Becasue the extra model worth of damage and slower dps attrition from loses should also be considered

It's comparing the weapon to itself. you don't need to take into account of squad size.

the garand lose 75% of its dps going from close to far, but the svt lose 87% of its dps going from close to far.

...
Spot the out of trend semi auto rifle.

As I have pointed out several times SVT need less damage close more damage mid and far...

A penal squad is currently stronger then riflemen at range up to around 10-12. It should have its close DPS decreased its DPS up to 20 increased and it far DPS about to Conscript Mosin level...

Once more if Penals are meant to be used as long range infatry they should be using bolt action rifles...

Turning SVT into a rifle that will have the best (or close to the best) DPS at all ranges compared to other soviet rifles will create more problems than it will solve...

I never claimed that they should not have a good weapon. On the other hand why do they need a weapon that does not follow weapon profiles and it is good at all ranges?

If they need far DPS they should use a bolt action rifle or LMG
If they need a mid DPS weapon they should use a semi automatic
If they need a close weapon they should use SMG

If they need to able to upgrade and fulfil different roles they should change weapons.

flamer mean anti garrison...
I don't necessary mean anti-infantry, it could mean that they need more utility or more roles...

Soviet have access to loads of call-in infantry, making them stronger will simply have to increase their price and compete with the call-in infantry...

Already answered this:


Actually you used the term: "the m1 garand, the most common semi-auto rifle (carbine) in the game" but if weather M1 is most commonly use semi automatic rifle has little to do with Penals...

having a semi-auto rifle doesn't mean being bad at range. the m1 garand on the rifleman is decent on all range with a dps curve of 6.76-1.67. the ranger/paratroper m1 carbine is even better at 9.89 - 1.83.

flamethrower is anti-infantry weapon. Every flamethrower in the game will torch infantry regardless of whether the infantry were in or out of garrison. Pioneer and the sov engineer both receive a substantial boost in firepower against infantry when they upgrade to the flamethrower. the Churchill Crocodile is every german infantry's worst nightmare.

what relic refer to as "carbine" in their weapon profile are basically semi-auto rifle. G43, garand, and svt-40 are all semi-auto rifle.

what's the exact problem in the penal having more dps if you already acknowledge that the rifleman have more received accuracy?

As I have pointed out several times SVT need less damage close more damage mid and far...

how much? You've been arguing against the suggestion of doubling the penal's far dps to ~1.4.

a minor a minor boost from .78 to 1.0 is not enough. This isn't just about giving the penal a sidebuff, this is about making them stronger.

The penal needs to be a strong unit to give the soviet an viable non-doc elite unit, or at least an non-doc anti-elite unit. Just making the penal an effective 270mp unit might not be enough.

Turning SVT into a rifle that will have the best (or close to the best) DPS at all ranges compared to other soviet rifles will create more problems than it will solve...

the mosin nagants is not a good comparison. the conscript is especially notorious for lacking in firepower. The guard mosins rarely factor in fights as the squad are always loaded down with weapon upgrades.

having a semi-auto rifle doesn't mean being bad at range. the m1 garand on the rifleman is decent on all range with a dps curve of 6.76-1.67. the ranger/paratroper m1 carbine is even better at 9.89 - 1.83.

The M1 overperforms for the simple reason that the faction support weapon under perform as a design intent.

flamethrower is anti-infantry weapon...

Flamer is a good AI weapon at mid range, poor at close, where it shines is against cover or garrison

what relic refer to as "carbine" in their weapon profile are basically semi-auto rifle...

The only units using riflemen M1 garand are riflemen and few officer entities (as far as I can remember) most axis infantries use k-98 but the one obers use and then volks is quite different.

what's the exact problem in the penal having more dps if you already acknowledge that the rifleman have more received accuracy?

1) Penals have more DPS bonus than Riflemen have EHP bonus
2) Riflemen have support weapon that under-perform

how much? You've been arguing against the suggestion of doubling the penal's far dps to ~1.4.
a minor a minor boost from .78 to 1.0 is not enough. This isn't just about giving the penal a sidebuff, this is about making them stronger.

If you want to turn them into a far DPS unit why do you object giving them Mosins?

The penal needs to be a strong unit to give the soviet an viable non-doc elite unit, or at least an non-doc anti-elite unit. Just making the penal an effective 270mp unit might not be enough.

Why? are soviet currently under-performing? What you will think will happen if soviet have access to an infatry that out DPS gren and volks at all ranges and out bleeds PG and SP? you will have HMG spam...

the mosin nagants is not a good comparison. the conscript is especially notorious for lacking in firepower. The guard mosins rarely factor in fights as the squad are always loaded down with weapon upgrades.

Conscript are designed to lose to gren at long range and win at mid range...
Guard mosin is a decent weapon if that is not enough Penal could have their own version of a more powerful Mosin but one that would follow the bolt action profile...

The M1 overperforms for the simple reason that the faction support weapon under perform as a design intent.

Flamer is a good AI weapon at mid range, poor at close, where it shines is against cover or garrison

The only units using riflemen M1 garand are riflemen and few officer entities (as far as I can remember) most axis infantries use k-98 but the one obers use and then volks is quite different.

1) Penals have more DPS bonus than Riflemen have EHP bonus
2) Riflemen have support weapon that under-perform

If you want to turn them into a far DPS unit why do you object giving them Mosins?

Why? are soviet currently under-performing? What you will think will happen if soviet have access to an infatry that out DPS gren and volks at all ranges and out bleeds PG and SP? you will have HMG spam...

Conscript are designed to lose to gren at long range and win at mid range...
Guard mosin is a decent weapon if that is not enough Penal could have their own version of a more powerful Mosin but one that would follow the bolt action profile...

The act of going t1 for penal means delaying or even skipping t2. The penal needs to be good enough to carry the early soviet without the aid of support weapon.

Using support weapon and penals together require additional resource investment from soviet, and it should be powerful.

As you said, the conscript will reliably lose to the grenadier and volksgrenadier at long range. The conscript's mosin nagant is a long range weapon that's been designed to lose long range fight against other long range weapon. Considering this, the svt's long range capability shouldn't be designed around the mosin nagant.


the wehr player's biggest strength is their support weapon. Fighting against superior infantry squad with superior support weapon is what they do. The volksgrenadier is also a superb long range fighter backed up by an excellent close range fighter. The OKW mid game is a bit of a mess admittedly

and boosting the svt's far range dps to exactly 1.4 is not going to mean the penal out dps the grenadier. the penal squad's 8.4 dps is still lower than the 9 dps on both volks and grenadier. The penal squad will probably win in the end, but it's going to be a costly trade. A wehr player is also going to be bringing his mg42 into the fight if the soviet get stuck at long rang fight.

Lastly, the flamethrower is both anti-infantry and anti-garrison. The flamethrower get a damage bonus against heavy and garrison cover, but it merely ignore light cover. Even outside of cover a flamethrower is still going to hurt, being in heavy or garrison just make it worst.

The act of going t1 for penal means delaying or even skipping t2. The penal needs to be good enough to carry the early soviet without the aid of support weapon.

Why are you trying to turn Soviets into USF? Why do you want to turn a specialized unit like Penals into a mainline infatry unit? Why do you suggest to mess with faction balance in order to make 1 unit more attractive? Are Soviet in your opinion under-performing? Why do you object in bolt action rifles?

Using support weapon and penals together require additional resource investment from soviet, and it should be powerful.

No in all cases. Soviet have a wide selection of doctrinal support weapon, doctrinal infatry snipers and transports.
Also the fuel cost to support weapons access for USF is more and the actual weapon are less cost efficient in most cases.

... the svt's long range capability shouldn't be designed around the mosin nagant.

Totally arbitrary conclusion. SVT a semi automatic and it should be designed to be good at mid range.

...Fighting against superior infantry squad with superior support weapon is what they do. The volksgrenadier is also a superb long range fighter backed up by an excellent close range fighter.

Axis mainline infatry by design are meant to excel at long range fights and lose in other ranges (accept UKF).

and boosting the svt's far range dps to exactly 1.4 is not going to mean the penal out dps the grenadier.

It means that Penals will win the engagements against Gren and Volks in all range due to more EHP and will shred to pieces any other infatry trying to close in before it can close in or simply bleed them out...That would force HMG spam that can still be countered by snipers and m3s...

And most importantly WHY do you object to having bolt action rifles?

Lastly, the flamethrower is both anti-infantry and anti-garrison...

All small arm weapon including flamer are AI, glad that we agree that flamer are anti-garrison on top of that

Why are you trying to turn Soviets into USF? Why do you want to turn a specialized unit like Penals into a mainline infatry unit? Why do you suggest to mess with faction balance in order to make 1 unit more attractive? Are Soviet in your opinion under-performing? Why do you object in bolt action rifles?

Specialization in feeding vet to other units is not a specialization.
And penals have pretty much the same role as rifles-stronger mainline inf with no team weapon support, except they don't have even the third of utility of rifles.
But you're too damn stupid/stubborn to comprehend that as the sole thought of actually having to put effort to counter penals makes you shit yourself out of fear as I can't see any other reason why you'd be so stubborn against making the unit work.
And when units balance is bad, you mess with it AKA fix the unit.

No in all cases. Soviet have a wide selection of doctrinal support weapon, doctrinal infatry snipers and transports.
Also the fuel cost to support weapons access for USF is more and the actual weapon are less cost efficient in most cases.

Irrelevant, we're talking stock units here in a dedicated AI tier that doesn't excel at AI.

Totally arbitrary conclusion. SVT a semi automatic and it should be designed to be good at mid range.

Like.. for examle... M1 garand? You know, the good-at-mid-range rifle that happen to not be utterly useless at long range? Or G43 for exactly the same reason?

2 out of 3 semi autos are good at long range.
Conclusion is simple.

Axis mainline infatry by design are meant to excel at long range fights and lose in other ranges (accept UKF).

2 out of 3 allied armies basic inf are effective long range fighters.
2 out of these units are also more expensive then basic axis units.
I do wonder, who do penals have more in common with... cheap conscript that is supposed to be spammed and not scale, or AI focused infantry that costs more then axis basic inf

It means that Penals will win the engagements against Gren and Volks in all range due to more EHP and will shred to pieces any other infatry trying to close in before it can close in or simply bleed them out...That would force HMG spam that can still be countered by snipers and m3s...

That is exactly the gardening point!
Grens are general inf.
Volks are general inf.
Penals are AI specialists that cost more then both of them and come from dedicated AI tier.
Plus grens will still stomp them with LMG and OKW elite inf will outperform them at range anyway.

You're talking conscripts here.

And most importantly WHY do you object to having bolt action rifles?

quote post="515021"]Lastly, the flamethrower is both anti-infantry and anti-garrison...

All small arm weapon including flamer are AI, glad that we agree that flamer are anti-garrison on top of that

And why you insist so hard on them?
They have SVTs and as shown by *insert any other AI unit of any other army here*, it doesn't matter which weapon unit uses, if its a rifle(both semi autos and bolt action), its effective at ALL ranges, unless you're talking builder units. The ONLY difference being stock semi autos deal 8 dmg while stock rifles deal 16, making semi autos less bursty and RNG dependend*

*does not apply to osttruppen.

Specialization in...

Why quote 5 questions if you are not going to answer any of them?

Pls read understand respond...

2 out of 3 semi autos are good at long range.

The ONLY difference being stock semi autos deal 8 dmg while stock rifles deal 16, making semi autos less bursty and RNG dependend*

But according to you there is not profile for the "semi auto" group

There is no such thing as general weapon profiles for weapon groups.

Dear Katitof if you want to explain your theory about weapon profiles pls do so in the thread created for that and let continue are debate. Have a nice day

Why are you trying to turn Soviets into USF? Why do you want to turn a specialized unit like Penals into a mainline infatry unit? Why do you suggest to mess with faction balance in order to make 1 unit more attractive? Are Soviet in your opinion under-performing? Why do you object in bolt action rifles?

No in all cases. Soviet have a wide selection of doctrinal support weapon, doctrinal infatry snipers and transports.
Also the fuel cost to support weapons access for USF is more and the actual weapon are less cost efficient in most cases.



Totally arbitrary conclusion. SVT a semi automatic and it should be designed to be good at mid range.



Axis mainline infatry by design are meant to excel at long range fights and lose in other ranges (accept UKF).


It means that Penals will win the engagements against Gren and Volks in all range due to more EHP and will shred to pieces any other infatry trying to close in before it can close in or simply bleed them out...That would force HMG spam that can still be countered by snipers and m3s...

And most importantly WHY do you object to having bolt action rifles?

All small arm weapon including flamer are AI, glad that we agree that flamer are anti-garrison on top of that

are volks just a copy of the grenadier? are tommies just a clone of the grenadier? Even with similar weapon characteristic, units can still be differentiated based on different abilities and upgrades.

The penals and rifleman are going to have vastly different upgrades and abilities. That difference alone is going to demand different play style.

Part of the idea of buffing penal is to make more doctrine viable, to free the soviet from needing to use shock and guards.

In addition, with the exception of defensive tactic, none of the soviet doctrine come close to fully replace support weapon. Even defensive tactic lack a decent atg.

a svt-40 with 5.99-1.4 is still going to maintain semi-auto characteristic. The grenadier k98k 's 5.76-2.26 is going to be a bit better at long range but worst at close range. The only reason a penal squadis going to win at long range is due to the two extra model, but even then it's a costly fight. Remember that both the volks and the grenadier are both cheaper units to begin with. trading long range fire is an inefficient use of resources. Even just stalling and depleting a more expensive unit is a strategic victory. The penal doesn't need to stay at 270 mp either. Better to have a more expensive and useful unit than a cheaper but useless unit. Details like these are to be tested and change as needed.

Penal also lack smoke. M3 can be zoned by grenadiers. Soviet snipers are also more vulnerable to rush than the german sniper.

Turn peneals into long range unit. No damge at close and med range but very high dmg at long.
At least long range unit is very needed.