Penals Adjustment

Penals Adjustment

Currently, Penals are extremely situational and don't scale very well into late-game. While they are effective against infantry in cover and especially strong against garrisoned infantry, they need to close in to be effective, causing them to drop models, losing DPS and creating MP bleed.

In this adjustment, I suggest improving their firepower at near, mid and long range by 1.5%, 50%, and 108%, respectively. To reduce the bleed of veteran squads, their received accuracy buff at Vet 3 is also improved. Finally, their cost is adjusted to compensate for their improved performance.

Now, Penals fulfill a medium-to-long range fire support role. They will be able to best any early-game Axis infantry, and can keep up with them in late-game via upgrades and veterancy. However, they are much more fragile than their counterparts, making them a glass-cannon infantry unit. They synergize better with Conscripts—Penals provide fire support from long range behind cover while Conscripts (possibly upgraded with PPsH-41 SMGs) flank with the help of Oorah! and can also act as a meat shield. Guards remain viable due to their ability to shut down light vehicle play and snare vehicles, while Shocks remain viable due to their durability and close-range prowess. Alternatively Penals can also take the place of Soviet elite infantry in commanders where there are none. They retain their bunker-busting capabilities via their Satchel ability.

Changelog

Penal Battalion
-Cost increased from 270MP to 300MP.
-Reinforce cost increased from 22MP to 27MP.
-Population increased from 7 to 8.
-SVT accuracy increased from 0.69/0.46/0.288 to 0.7/0.69/0.6.
-SVT DPS increased from 6.207/2.166/0.778 to 6.3/3.249/1.618
-Veterancy Rank 3 received accuracy buff decreased from -23% to -29%.

Feel free to try them out in the workshop. Feedback is welcome.

Edit: Is giving them 6 PPsH-41s for 90MU a viable replacement for their Flamer upgrade?

So.... Why would I go for DP28 Penals if I can get better Guards?

Not well thought changes.

There are already 2 or 3 threads by the way

I agree.

Penals Adjustment
Penal Battalion
-Cost increased from 270MP to 300MP.
-Reinforce cost increased from 22MP to 27MP.
-Population increased from 7 to 8.
-SVT accuracy increased from 0.69/0.46/0.288 to 0.7/0.69/0.6.
-SVT DPS increased from 6.207/2.166/0.778 to 6.3/3.249/1.618
-Flamethrower Package upgrade replaced with 2x DP-28 LMG upgrade, 75 Munitions.
-Veterancy Rank 3 received accuracy buff decreased from -23% to -29%.

Feel free to try them out in the workshop. Feedback is welcome.

Get what your doing but DP's on penals is kind of borked
- Guards do long range AI, Penals with DPs do long range AI, that will make one better and one unused most of the time.
- Penals get a +69% bonus to accuracy at vet 3, Guards only get 30%, that makes Penals wwwwwwaaaayyyy better with DPs then Guards. If you decrease the vet bonus and keep the DPs Penals start to look more and more like a copy of Guards (boring)
- You've buffed the SVT so it doesn't suck, but is better then the Guards mosin, with a flamer rather then DP's this might work, but with DPs it again makes Penals way better then Guards.
- If there's no point in DP Guards, PTRS Guards are not really going to scale out of the light tank phase, doc PTRS cons are far better, as you have the cons already & can now get Penals rather then waste MP on Guards that don't scale as well.

I am aware that there are many threads discussing Penals, it's just that I have a different approach and posting it where other people have their own proposals is like hijacking a thread.

So, the Dual DP upgrade is a bad idea. Reverted to flamethrower.

I will throw my suggestions here from my mod and then toss my reasoning (also you didn't happen to steal some of my numbers, did you? ):

-SVT accuracy to .7/.65/.55
-SVT damage from 8 to 10.
-Cooldowns and aim-times adjusted.
-Squad cost increased to 300 manpower and 27 reinforce from 270 manpower and 22 reinforce.
-Reinforce time from 4.5 to 5.4. Build time from 27 to 32 seconds.
-Flamethrower Upgrade now adds 3 PPsh-41s to better mesh with the flamethrower.
-Flamethrower cost from 60 to 90 and renamed Assault Package.
-Population from 7 to 8.
-Reduced the drop-rate of the Flamethrower to 10% from 33% due to the PPsH-41s that are added to the squad which are considered slot items.
-"Tripwire Flare" changed to "To The Last Man!" This ability is a passive that increases the power of the squad as they lose members. Modifiers are +4% accuracy, -2% weapon cooldown and -3% received accuracy per member lost.

Their DPS from 0/10/20/30/35 is 5.81/4.5/2.9/2/1.8.

Why such powerful early weapons? Because T1 is a dedicated AI tier. If it'll have the crippling flaw of lacking actual AT it should provide powerful units which also means less linear teching and choices for the player, even if T1 and T2 aren't expensive at all.

Why the increase in reinforce, build, and cost? Cost is obvious since they're better than most squad in direct combat early on. Reinforce is so the Soviet player can't spam Penals without being punished unlike Conscripts. Build-time is also to give player more time to capture the map against T1 openings where an early Penal unit would counter anything that's not an MG or a Sturmpioneer flank around the corner. It also meshes well with Conscripts who can be used to keep costs down who would also be screening for this unit.

Why the swap to PPsH-41s to mesh with the flamer? We all know that rifle turned out horrible because the USF squad was not only durable, but they had weapons that would chew you up at most ranges the moment you left cover. If you kept the new SVTs you'd have a similar situation, though obviously without the power of smoke or grenades. Furthermore, it means a role change for Penals which is something we need ie: trade-offs. Do you try to maintain them as an effective range squad or do you go in close where you're not durable, but will be able to deal lots of damage. Finally it means Penals act as a DPS unit for either range.

Why no improvements to received accuracy? It overlaps heavily with Conscripts who should be doing all the screening. It's been the role of Conscripts aside from their other utility roles. Besides, the high amount of accuracy bonuses for Penals would mean the scale just as well against infantry, but they shouldn't be forming the entire core of main line infantry.

Also Satchel have no use in combat as the unit in general

Sold.

Messing with weapon profiles is bad...

Long rangea weapon are bolt action rifles and LMG. If Penal are meant to be long range they should use those type of weapons.

Semi automatic rifles like SVT should be good for mid fighting and work good at range 20 and complement Fmaers.

Smgs should work close and not combined with flamers...

SVT need to have some it close DPS moved mid and far but it should not replace Mosin as a long range weapon.

-Reinforce cost increased from 22MP to 27MP.

-Squad cost increased to 300 manpower and 27 reinforce from 270 manpower and 22 reinforce.

All squads in game have the reinforce cost = 50% of model at max. Some are lower (PG, Tommy) due to mp drain complaint.

For penal, it would be 270/6 * 50% = 22.5, or 22 mp.

If squad base mp is 300, then the reinforce at max should be 300/6 * 50% = 25.

Be careful with balance. Know the basic first, otherwise, you just make another error like Relic did.

So.... Why would I go for DP28 Penals if I can get better Guards?

Not well thought changes.

There are already 2 or 3 threads by the way

Cuz most playable docs dont have guards

Messing with weapon profiles is bad...

Long ranged weapon are bolt action rifles and LMGs. If Penal are meant to be long range they should use those type of weapons.

Semi automatic rifles like SVT should be good for mid fighting and work good at range 20 and complement Flamers.

Smgs should work close and not combined with flamers...

SVT need to have some it close DPS moved mid and far but it should not replace Mosin as a long range weapon.

Should be fine. Take a look at USF Riflemen M1 Garands. They've still got higher DPS at long range than these adjusted SVTs.

All squads in game have the reinforce cost = 50% of model at max. Some are lower (PG, Tommy) due to mp drain complaint.

For penal, it would be 270/6 * 50% = 22.5, or 22 mp.

If squad base mp is 300, then the reinforce at max should be 300/6 * 50% = 25.

Be careful with balance. Know the basic first, otherwise, you just make another error like Relic did.

Sold.


On a different note, how does giving them a 6-PPsH-41 SMG upgrade sound? Makes them either a decent long-ranged combat unit or poor-man's Shocks.

Cuz most playable docs dont have guards

Heard of guard motor or mechanized support?
Even combined arms is good atm.

All squads in game have the reinforce cost = 50% of model at max. Some are lower (PG, Tommy) due to mp drain complaint.

For penal, it would be 270/6 * 50% = 22.5, or 22 mp.

If squad base mp is 300, then the reinforce at max should be 300/6 * 50% = 25.

Be careful with balance. Know the basic first, otherwise, you just make another error like Relic did.

You can actually bypass this by adding an upgrade to each army which increases or decreases the cost of the entity squad-wise. This is already done to Tommies and Sappers when they move up to five men to prevent Tommies or Sappers being more than their original cost after the upgrade.

Should be fine. Take a look at USF Riflemen M1 Garands. They've still got higher DPS at long range than these adjusted SVTs.

as you can read in the other thread:
1) riflemen have 5 Garand Panal have 6 SVTs.
2) riflemen do not get a OP boost in their DPS at Vet3
3) riflemen with flamers where over performing
4) M1 garrand is generally a weapon that over-performs because contrary to soviet their support weapon under-perform
5) increase damage to increase DPS for fast firing weapons is the wrong way to about it because these weapon become way too lethal at close
6) their proposed numbers are greatly over performing making them better than Guard mosin rifle at all ranges. A 300 squad will be better than a 340 squad...

Weapon profiles was a great improvement in the game and should be followed as much as possible. If a unit need more DPS at certain range it should change weapon type and not change the profile of the weapon...

The change might add more options to Soviets but will totally limit the axis option. Penals will win over grenadier and vols in all ranges while they will via attrition vs P.G. and S.P. so actually the only viable response will be HMG spam...In other word the game will become worse

as you can read in the other thread:
1) riflemen have 5 Garand Panal have 6 SVTs.

Irrelevant, weapon profiles can be adjusted so 6 SVTs have the same DPS as 5 M1s.

2) riflemen do not get a OP boost in their DPS at Vet3

No, instead they get much more REC ACC, access incomparably better weapons, much more utility(AT, AT and smoke nades).

3) riflemen with flamers where over performing

Because:they get much more REC ACC, much more utility(AT, AT and smoke nades).

4) M1 garrand is generally a weapon that over-performs because contrary to soviet their support weapon under-perform

Exclusively in your head.
Plus tell me, which support weapons will be behind penals if you go T1?

5) increase damage to increase DPS for fast firing weapons is the wrong way to about it because these weapon become way too lethal at close

You've heard of these stats called accuracy and cooldown?
They can be adjusted depending on range.
For different reasons, but I agree that DMG increase is not the way to go.

6) their proposed numbers are greatly over performing making them better than Guard mosin rifle at all ranges

Again, in your head mostly.
Guards are completely different squad with different use, scaling and weapons.

Weapon profiles was a great improvement in the game and should be followed as much as possible. If a unit need more DPS at certain range it should change weapon type and not change the profile of the weapon...

You don't even understand weapon profiles, what they are and what they do....
LMG weapon profile was completely changed at least twice.
AT rifle weapon profile was completely changed twice again.
G43s also had different profile then they used to.
Same for RET carbines or PPSHs in general.

You're repeating "weapon profiles this, weapon profiles that".
Well guess what, weapon profiles rules you seem to stick to are OUTDATED for 2 years. There is no such thing as general weapon profiles for weapon groups. Its all about balance now.

If SVT weapon profile DOES NOT FULFILL UNITS ROLE then IT NEEDS CHANGE. Since short and mid DPS are comparable to other semi auto, it means LONG RANGE part of the profile needs adjustment, therefore long range DPS needs a boost.

Done.

No higher philosophy behind this.

Irrelevant, weapon profiles can be adjusted so 6 SVTs have the same DPS as 5 M1s.

As usual you jump in a debate, for the sole reason to prove someone wrong without actually having any idea what had been said so far.
In this thread there 2 very specific proposals one in OP and one by miragelfa and in both of them Penal end up with more far DPS than riflemen.

Exclusively in your head.
Plus tell me, which support weapons will be behind penals if you go T1?

The 120 mm mortar, Dshk and m-42...in addition a USF officer needs more fuel than Soviet need to built both T1/T2

You've heard of these stats called accuracy and cooldown?

Have actually read what has been proposed?

-SVT damage from 8 to 10.

PLS do us all as favor (including you katitof) and first read and understand before responding

You don't even understand weapon profiles, what they are and what they do....
..There is no such thing as general weapon profiles for weapon groups. Its all about balance now.

Why don't you explain it to me then? will even start a different thread about it.
There are actual weapon profiles for weapon group simplest example hand help flamers...most of them use the same flat profile.
Weapon profiles where introduced for balance reason and there is no contraction between weapon profiles and balance contrary to what you imply.

If SVT weapon profile DOES NOT FULFILL UNITS ROLE then IT NEEDS CHANGE.

If a weapon does not fit a unit role that unit simply need a different weapon...

Why don't you explain it to me then? will even start a different thread about it.
There are actual weapon profiles for weapon group simplest example hand help flamers...most of them use the same flat profile.
Weapon profiles where introduced for balance reason and there is no contraction between weapon profiles and balance contrary to what you imply.

And Penals DPS dropoff is way bigger then all the other semi autos / Carbines profiles, guess thats why Penals suck.

Must be a typo, Lelic should match the dps curve to the correct profile and buff the long range dps by 70%.