Idea for Penals

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 00:49 AMFiresparks

penal being a "mid-close" range unit is an artificial constraint.

penal's mid and close range dps are not even that good. the wehr pio have better close range dps than the penal.

the penal are just crap. their dps is neither good enough at close range nor is it good enough at long range.




the american flame rifle was difficult to balance, because the flamethrower was an unique situation. It would not have made sense to nerf the rifleman in order to accommodate a DLC doctrine upgrade. The only sensible thing to do was to nerf the flamethrower itself in some way.

By comparison, the penal and flamethrower are irrevocably linked to each other. there's a lot more room to work here, because the penal would be balanced and designed around the fact it's got a flamethrower.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 02:34 AMthedarkarmadillo

Only if penals come with the flame thrower, else we run into the problem with the 221/222 where the upgrade was a nobrainer but crippled the unit without forking out the muni.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 01:23 AMTobis

Received accuracy

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 06:34 AMAustralian Magic

No matter wha ability and DPS buff you give them, they will still die like flies if they won't get -29% rec. acc.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 01:08 AMTobis

You can increase the dps by changing more than just accuracy, you know.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 07:53 AMmiragefla

If they were turned into DPS units, then you can have Conscripts in front to soak damage/merge to maintain firepower. It works quite well in the mod I've worked on where Conscripts can screen and Penals deal the damage.

And don't say "But focus fire."

Because a lot of units die very quickly to focus fire.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 07:56 AMMyself

Yes I know but the result would be pretty similar...

Most factors one can change have a MID values like accuracy and since MID range for SVT is 16 increasing the FAR value does not help that much at ranges 20 and bellow where the flamer comes into play...

That means that if a flamer Penal fights at range 20 it will see little benefit and it it fight at 16 and bellow it will see no benefit. Finally at range 20 and above it will have an entity not firing at all...

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 00:49 AMFiresparks

penal being a "mid-close" range unit is an artificial constraint.

penal's mid and close range dps are not even that good. the wehr pio have better close range dps than the penal.

the penal are just crap. their dps is neither good enough at close range nor is it good enough at long range.
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Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 08:22 AMMyself

No it is not it a weapon profile choice. Carbine weapons are meant to be mid to close while bolt action mid to far and SMG are meant to be close weapon.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 08:25 AMFiresparks

where did you get that idea? the grenadier g43 is a flat upgrade from the gren k98. the panzerfusilier g43 is a flat upgrade from the panzerFus k98 (and the volks k98).

Neither the american nor the british have access to both weapon to provide an example.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 08:40 AMMyself

When weapon profiles where introduced each weapon type was designed to perform better at certain range as clearly stated in patch notes...

"Small Arms Weapon Profiles

The goal is to improve tactics by better defining unit roles; thereby, increasing the importance of unit positioning relative to cover. A weapon profile defines the distribution of damage over distance. Previously, the profiles were generally flat and did not fully characterize the strengths and weaknesses of a squad. Now, a Pioneer squad with a MP40 submachine gun has a very high damage output at close range but a substantially lower damage output at max range. The distribution of damage is no longer blended between ranges; this combined with the increased weapon lethality should reduce the tendency to rush infantry at one another."



The issue that derived from that was that some weapon upgrades ended up reducing DPS of a unit at certain ranges and thus some of them had their DPS improved at some ranges like the conscript SMGs at mid which is why a Conscript smg is better than a shock SMG are range 15 and above (which makes little sense because you have elite vs mainline infantry)... (someone forgot the PG G43).

Note now that both the weapon you mentioned are weapon upgrades you buy...

In general the weapon profiles principal stands for non upgrade weapons:
Bolt action infantry are best used mid to far, carbine infantry are best used mid (to close vs bolt action, mid to far vs SMGs) and smg are best used close...

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 10:29 AMFiresparks

that patch was over 2 years ago. The stug was a "generalist" unit back then before it got changed into a tank destroyer roughly one year ago.

It's also obvious from the grenadier g43 and k98 that the whole carbine vs bolt action is no longer universally true. It was a flawed designed that got quietly rolled back over the years. Design drift over the year, stop clinging on to them.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 11:00 AMJohnSmith

Seems like "Myself" cannot accept that he's wrong throughout the thread, trying to incite some kind of knowledge war about how perfect his wisdom is :/

Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 18:21 PMKatitof

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Go away from threads about units you have no slightest clue about.
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Again, STOP talking about factions and units you know noting about, ...

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 10:29 AMFiresparks

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It's also for a similar reason why the panzer grenadier is rarely used except for schreck spammer. the increased in close range dps is not worth the lost in long range dps and the increase in price and pop cost.

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 10:57 AMMyself

Actually imo it is great design instead of having to know the weapon profile for each weapon you get a rough idea from the weapon type.

Stugs are irrelevant.

The concept still is in place and even the case of the G43 does not demonstrate that the concept is not used anymore but the exact opposite.

G43 does use the carbine profile having good dps mid to close and only slightly better than K98 far.

DPs g43/k98 wer:

181% 205% 176% 141% 120% 109% 104% 101%

The change did not roll back, DPS spread of weapon is still according to type with some changes to weapon upgrades to better fit the role of specific units. The G43 is simply a better weapon than the K98 at all ranges but much better at mid to close because it is a weapon upgrade one has to buy, as I have explained in the PPsh example with conscripts and shocks...

Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 11:08 AMMyself

That is an issue because one can upgrade cheaper infantry with weapon using MU while one has to pay manpower/pop cost reinforce time for these units to come with better weapons and bleeds bad... (has been suggested that PG become cheaper and come with 2 k98 2 St44 being able to upgrade with 2 ST44 more or 1+1 Shrecks or 2 G43 (doctrinal))

To sum up weapon profiles are still in use having the DPs spread according to weapon type and if Penals need an increase in DPs that should effect more their mid DPS and not their dps far as suggested by Katitof.

Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 08:27 AMFiresparks

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The flexibility to go long range combat is what the penal and panzergrenadier lack. A successful "mid-close" range unit are more accurately described as jack of all trade. The American rifleman is a successful "mid-close" unit because it's decent at long range combat as well.
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