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Idea for Penals

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25 Mar 2016, 02:34 AM
#41
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



penal being a "mid-close" range unit is an artificial constraint.

penal's mid and close range dps are not even that good. the wehr pio have better close range dps than the penal.

the penal are just crap. their dps is neither good enough at close range nor is it good enough at long range.




the american flame rifle was difficult to balance, because the flamethrower was an unique situation. It would not have made sense to nerf the rifleman in order to accommodate a DLC doctrine upgrade. The only sensible thing to do was to nerf the flamethrower itself in some way.

By comparison, the penal and flamethrower are irrevocably linked to each other. there's a lot more room to work here, because the penal would be balanced and designed around the fact it's got a flamethrower.

Only if penals come with the flame thrower, else we run into the problem with the 221/222 where the upgrade was a nobrainer but crippled the unit without forking out the muni.
25 Mar 2016, 03:13 AM
#42
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930


Only if penals come with the flame thrower, else we run into the problem with the 221/222 where the upgrade was a nobrainer but crippled the unit without forking out the muni.


it wouldn't be that simple. the 222 was still pretty bad until the health upgrade recently. I would say that it's actually the hp that made the 222 decent, not the "free" cannon.

Giving the penal their flamethrower by default is not going to get around the necessity of buffing the unit.
25 Mar 2016, 03:38 AM
#43
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 01:23 AMTobis

Received accuracy :snfBarton:

That's the other guy's stats, BUT FINE, you win this round.
nee
25 Mar 2016, 06:29 AM
#44
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

I suppose if you want buffed lethality, they get 2x flamers for slightly higher cost and/or maybe even a regular grenade ability? Would make for better flamer unit than engineers that need to do repair work, and doesn't stand out too well with Shocks because they have no armour or SMGs or smoke nade.

This way they're a great complement to conscripts because the latter has AT snare and molotov, but no regular grenade.
25 Mar 2016, 06:34 AM
#45
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

No matter wha ability and DPS buff you give them, they will still die like flies if they won't get -29% rec. acc.
25 Mar 2016, 07:53 AM
#46
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

No matter wha ability and DPS buff you give them, they will still die like flies if they won't get -29% rec. acc.


If they were turned into DPS units, then you can have Conscripts in front to soak damage/merge to maintain firepower. It works quite well in the mod I've worked on where Conscripts can screen and Penals deal the damage.

And don't say "But focus fire."

Because a lot of units die very quickly to focus fire.
25 Mar 2016, 07:56 AM
#47
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 01:08 AMTobis


You can increase the dps by changing more than just accuracy, you know.


Yes I know but the result would be pretty similar...

Most factors one can change have a MID values like accuracy and since MID range for SVT is 16 increasing the FAR value does not help that much at ranges 20 and bellow where the flamer comes into play...

That means that if a flamer Penal fights at range 20 it will see little benefit and it it fight at 16 and bellow it will see no benefit. Finally at range 20 and above it will have an entity not firing at all...
25 Mar 2016, 08:12 AM
#48
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



If they were turned into DPS units, then you can have Conscripts in front to soak damage/merge to maintain firepower. It works quite well in the mod I've worked on where Conscripts can screen and Penals deal the damage.

And don't say "But focus fire."

Because a lot of units die very quickly to focus fire.


using the conscript as meatshield for penal doesn't make sense.

the svt40 have the same range as the mosin nagant, and the flamethrower even shorter.

Merging is also a questionable tactic for non conscript troops. The difference in survivability can be a liability.

the conscript would really been a distraction as the penal try to sneak up on enemy, but to be a distraction the conscript needs to be reasonable threat to begin with.

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 07:56 AMMyself


Yes I know but the result would be pretty similar...

Most factors one can change have a MID values like accuracy and since MID range for SVT is 16 increasing the FAR value does not help that much at ranges 20 and bellow where the flamer comes into play...

That means that if a flamer Penal fights at range 20 it will see little benefit and it it fight at 16 and bellow it will see no benefit. Finally at range 20 and above it will have an entity not firing at all...

if the penal are to be "mid-close" range units, then they should have been given smg. Right now the svt40 is stuck being equally poor at both long range and short range combat. Either their svt40 should get a buff, or they should just be redesigned with smg.

where did you get the idea that svt40 should have poor long range capability anyway? the g43 is basically an upgrade from the kar98. The grenadier g43 is a flat upgrade for the gren kar98 and the panzerfusilier g43 is a straight upgrade for the panzerfusilier kar98 (and the volks k98(
25 Mar 2016, 08:22 AM
#49
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677


penal being a "mid-close" range unit is an artificial constraint.

penal's mid and close range dps are not even that good. the wehr pio have better close range dps than the penal.

the penal are just crap. their dps is neither good enough at close range nor is it good enough at long range.
...


No it is not it a weapon profile choice. Carbine weapons are meant to be mid to close while bolt action mid to far and SMG are meant to be close weapon.

A pio smgs might be better up to range of 10 but a penal battalion sqaud has far superior fire power than a pio sqaud.

Actually:
146%(0) 146%(5) 130%(10) 198%(15) 218%(20) 276%(25) 401%(30) 307%(35)

It even has more DPS than a riflemen squad at some ranges...

106%(0) 123%(5) 109%(10) 84%(15) 74%(20) 67%(25) 62%(30) 56%(35)

My point is that Penals might or might not need more DPS but giving double DPS at FAR distance will not "fix them" as claimed by Katitof.

They could benefit from different vet bonuses since they are using the same from when there SVTs where good at far distance...

I tend to agree though more with a different approach suggested with a complete redesign turning them into cheap cannon fodder units...


25 Mar 2016, 08:25 AM
#50
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 08:22 AMMyself


No it is not it a weapon profile choice. Carbine weapons are meant to be mid to close while bolt action mid to far and SMG are meant to be close weapon.


where did you get that idea? the grenadier g43 is a flat upgrade from the gren k98. the panzerfusilier g43 is a flat upgrade from the panzerFus k98 (and the volks k98).

Neither the american nor the british have access to both weapon to provide an example.

regardless of what the svt40's are meant to be, it is not working. It's time to rethink the svt40's designs.
25 Mar 2016, 08:40 AM
#51
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677



where did you get that idea? the grenadier g43 is a flat upgrade from the gren k98. the panzerfusilier g43 is a flat upgrade from the panzerFus k98 (and the volks k98).

Neither the american nor the british have access to both weapon to provide an example.


When weapon profiles where introduced each weapon type was designed to perform better at certain range as clearly stated in patch notes...

"Small Arms Weapon Profiles

The goal is to improve tactics by better defining unit roles; thereby, increasing the importance of unit positioning relative to cover. A weapon profile defines the distribution of damage over distance. Previously, the profiles were generally flat and did not fully characterize the strengths and weaknesses of a squad. Now, a Pioneer squad with a MP40 submachine gun has a very high damage output at close range but a substantially lower damage output at max range. The distribution of damage is no longer blended between ranges; this combined with the increased weapon lethality should reduce the tendency to rush infantry at one another."



The issue that derived from that was that some weapon upgrades ended up reducing DPS of a unit at certain ranges and thus some of them had their DPS improved at some ranges like the conscript SMGs at mid which is why a Conscript smg is better than a shock SMG are range 15 and above (which makes little sense because you have elite vs mainline infantry)... (someone forgot the PG G43).

Note now that both the weapon you mentioned are weapon upgrades you buy...

In general the weapon profiles principal stands for non upgrade weapons:
Bolt action infantry are best used mid to far, carbine infantry are best used mid (to close vs bolt action, mid to far vs SMGs) and smg are best used close...


25 Mar 2016, 09:06 AM
#52
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

The real problem with Penal is that they are a specialized unit that can have their role replaced by other more versatile or more efficient units and come with a tech cost...

They can be really good at blowing up bunker or OKW trucks but their extra utility end around there...

I tend to agree more with this approach:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/46927/penal-battalion-a-completely-different-approach
25 Mar 2016, 10:29 AM
#53
avatar of RiCE

Posts: 284

Swap them with JLI
25 Mar 2016, 10:29 AM
#54
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 08:40 AMMyself


When weapon profiles where introduced each weapon type was designed to perform better at certain range as clearly stated in patch notes...

"Small Arms Weapon Profiles

The goal is to improve tactics by better defining unit roles; thereby, increasing the importance of unit positioning relative to cover. A weapon profile defines the distribution of damage over distance. Previously, the profiles were generally flat and did not fully characterize the strengths and weaknesses of a squad. Now, a Pioneer squad with a MP40 submachine gun has a very high damage output at close range but a substantially lower damage output at max range. The distribution of damage is no longer blended between ranges; this combined with the increased weapon lethality should reduce the tendency to rush infantry at one another."



The issue that derived from that was that some weapon upgrades ended up reducing DPS of a unit at certain ranges and thus some of them had their DPS improved at some ranges like the conscript SMGs at mid which is why a Conscript smg is better than a shock SMG are range 15 and above (which makes little sense because you have elite vs mainline infantry)... (someone forgot the PG G43).

Note now that both the weapon you mentioned are weapon upgrades you buy...

In general the weapon profiles principal stands for non upgrade weapons:
Bolt action infantry are best used mid to far, carbine infantry are best used mid (to close vs bolt action, mid to far vs SMGs) and smg are best used close...



that patch was over 2 years ago. The stug was a "generalist" unit back then before it got changed into a tank destroyer roughly one year ago. The western front armies wasn't even released back then.

It's also obvious from the grenadier g43 and k98 that the whole carbine vs bolt action is no longer universally true. It was a flawed design that got quietly rolled back over the years. Design drift over the year, stop clinging on to them. The exact reason why the penal is rarely use because of that design decision . The boost in close-mid firepower for the penal is not worth the increase in cost and the lower long range dps.

It's also for a similar reason why the panzer grenadier is rarely used except for schreck spammer. the increased in close range dps is not worth the lost in long range dps and the increase in price and pop cost.
25 Mar 2016, 10:57 AM
#55
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677


that patch was over 2 years ago. The stug was a "generalist" unit back then before it got changed into a tank destroyer roughly one year ago.

It's also obvious from the grenadier g43 and k98 that the whole carbine vs bolt action is no longer universally true. It was a flawed designed that got quietly rolled back over the years. Design drift over the year, stop clinging on to them.


Actually imo it is great design instead of having to know the weapon profile for each weapon you get a rough idea from the weapon type.

Stugs are irrelevant.

The concept still is in place and even the case of the G43 does not demonstrate that the concept is not used anymore but the exact opposite.

G43 does use the carbine profile having good dps mid to close and only slightly better than K98 far.

DPs g43/k98 wer:

181% 205% 176% 141% 120% 109% 104% 101%

The change did not roll back, DPS spread of weapon is still according to type with some changes to weapon upgrades to better fit the role of specific units. The G43 is simply a better weapon than the K98 at all ranges but much better at mid to close because it is a weapon upgrade one has to buy, as I have explained in the PPsh example with conscripts and shocks...

25 Mar 2016, 11:00 AM
#56
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

Seems like "Myself" cannot accept that he's wrong throughout the thread, trying to incite some kind of knowledge war about how perfect his wisdom is :/
25 Mar 2016, 11:08 AM
#57
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

Seems like "Myself" cannot accept that he's wrong throughout the thread, trying to incite some kind of knowledge war about how perfect his wisdom is :/


It also Seems like Johnsmith has nothing relevant to add to the thread and trolls instead making the debate toxic.

I am not actually trying to show off my knowledge I am simply using game arguments to support my point of view and responding to specific questions.

And even if I was demonstrating my knowledge I would be completely justified since it was questioned, guess who actually introduced my knowledge of the Penal and the game as an issue:

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 18:21 PMKatitof

...
Go away from threads about units you have no slightest clue about.
...
Again, STOP talking about factions and units you know noting about, ...


but do have a nice day.


...
It's also for a similar reason why the panzer grenadier is rarely used except for schreck spammer. the increased in close range dps is not worth the lost in long range dps and the increase in price and pop cost.

That is an issue because one can upgrade cheaper infantry with weapon using MU while one has to pay manpower/pop cost reinforce time for these units to come with better weapons and bleeds bad... (has been suggested that PG become cheaper and come with 2 k98 2 St44 being able to upgrade with 2 ST44 more or 1+1 Shrecks or 2 G43 (doctrinal))

To sum up weapon profiles are still in use having the DPs spread according to weapon type and if Penals need an increase in DPs that should effect more their mid DPS and not their dps far as suggested by Katitof.
25 Mar 2016, 11:45 AM
#58
avatar of Longshot_Cobra

Posts: 143

Penals are underperforming for their price and meta consideration, you need to spend in a building that has no way to counter vehicles for it.
It still makes conscript opening the most safe way to play soviets.

What I think should be done, is to :

-Buff them so that they are good at both mid and long range (make the DPS the same for both these ranges, they are using a SVT rifle).

-Give them the ability to upgrade with RPG-43 grenades.


This is just one suggestion, I know it may be overpowered, but I see it fit for them:

-Make their resistance to supression even bigger, as penals it's only fair they are made to counter MGs and shouldn't be affraid to rush them down.
26 Mar 2016, 08:27 AM
#59
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 10:57 AMMyself


Actually imo it is great design instead of having to know the weapon profile for each weapon you get a rough idea from the weapon type.

Stugs are irrelevant.

The concept still is in place and even the case of the G43 does not demonstrate that the concept is not used anymore but the exact opposite.

G43 does use the carbine profile having good dps mid to close and only slightly better than K98 far.

DPs g43/k98 wer:

181% 205% 176% 141% 120% 109% 104% 101%

The change did not roll back, DPS spread of weapon is still according to type with some changes to weapon upgrades to better fit the role of specific units. The G43 is simply a better weapon than the K98 at all ranges but much better at mid to close because it is a weapon upgrade one has to buy, as I have explained in the PPsh example with conscripts and shocks...



jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 11:08 AMMyself

That is an issue because one can upgrade cheaper infantry with weapon using MU while one has to pay manpower/pop cost reinforce time for these units to come with better weapons and bleeds bad... (has been suggested that PG become cheaper and come with 2 k98 2 St44 being able to upgrade with 2 ST44 more or 1+1 Shrecks or 2 G43 (doctrinal))

To sum up weapon profiles are still in use having the DPs spread according to weapon type and if Penals need an increase in DPs that should effect more their mid DPS and not their dps far as suggested by Katitof.



The penal is a more expensive unit than the conscript, they should be better at dealing damage. It's not like the conscript have excellent dps to begin with.

The flexibility to go long range combat is what the penal and panzergrenadier lack. A successful "mid-close" range unit are more accurately described as jack of all trade. The American rifleman is a successful "mid-close" unit because it's decent at long range combat as well.

a good close range unit have durability and tricks to get close, like the commandos or the shock.

a good long range unit rely on formation to whittle down enemy before they get close (or hmg).

a good mid-range unit rely on good all-round dps to be decent. The US rifleman is a good mid range unit. the panzer grenadier and penal are not good mid range unit. the flexibility is important because mid-range unit like the penal, panzergrenadier, and rifleman typically lack the durability of close range unit like commandos and shock.
26 Mar 2016, 10:52 AM
#60
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677


...
The flexibility to go long range combat is what the penal and panzergrenadier lack. A successful "mid-close" range unit are more accurately described as jack of all trade. The American rifleman is a successful "mid-close" unit because it's decent at long range combat as well.
...


Penal are not jack of all trades (that is the role of guards) they are specialized anti-garrison and anti-fortification unit.

The flamer upgrade available to them restricts there optimal range to 20 and below. As long as they only have the flamer upgrade available to them they will benefit more by mid DPS bonus than by far DPS bonus as suggested by Katitof...

What they need in their current state is different vet bonuses and different vet 1 ability (and maybe more mid dps)...

Redesigning them is a different approach which imo is better. They role of cheap T0 troops with some of the utility of conscripts suits them better...combined with a new role for conscripts...

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