Improved Emplacements Commander

1320MP + 36 popcap to counter 400mp mortar pit?

#workingasintended #hardcounter

i think you're going insane

yeah, go hunt some kangaroos and leave us alone here.

Since going to rank 4 in 2V2 as Axis I have played loads of different people.

The skill difference between a top 20 USF/Soviet player and a Brit player is INSANE. I have played top 10 brit players who are literally trash and rank 1000 with other factions. They are high with brit simply due to cancer doctrine. It's broken.

This forum is interesting, saying that sim city is cancer but OKW sim city is perfectly fine. Despite the fact I've always found OKW sim city harder to counter.

The only problem with this commander is counter battery is free, because it will never stop pelting it's counters.

This forum is interesting, saying that sim city is cancer but OKW sim city is perfectly fine. Despite the fact I've always found OKW sim city harder to counter.

The only problem with this commander is counter battery is free, because it will never stop pelting it's counters.

+1

Voted OP.

Why? Because emplacements (other than MG and decrewable arty) shouldn't be in the game. At all *covered at end*. Regardless, let's look at this commander.

1. Mainline inf can repair and build. Alright, this isn't so bad, although at 0 points it allows for even earlier mortar pits and such. Kind of neutral, IMO, since the repair is limited, and super early emplacements aren't that great.

2. +40 armor +30% HP. Why. Why would you do this. So now the already tricky to kill emplacements (especially early game) are even harder to take out. The game's about tactics, micro and maneuvering; not being AFK.

3. Forward Assemblies can repair things. At the same time as the Armor/HP buff you get a building that can repair said emplacements. Yea, no way this is a bad stacking ability. Imagine if there was a doc that gave command panzers AoE repair. Just a terrible, terrible idea. You don't even need to "micro" (really, not micro) your engies. Just use your AFK buildings to repair your AFK emplacements. 10/10 Esports ready.

4. Counter-barrage. So now the AFK buildings that are repaired by AFK engies can AFK counter-barrage. Not only this, but it works on base buildings, which is horribly, insanely broken. Why? Well, let's look. Firstly, on smaller maps, it covers literally the ENTIRE map. How do you counter emplacements? Usually arty. Now you can't counter it. Well, no problem, right? You just take out the arty with off-map. Oh wait, it can't be decrewed, and it's in the base sector (which banned arty units a while back) so it can't be hit by off-map. What is this? It's like whoever made this ability never played the game.

5. Precision arty. Oh look. An ability to stop anyone that somehow gets close to your city, or really anything at all.


It's not so much that it's blatantly OP (that counter arty sure is), it's that it goes against every single convention and game mechanic in the game. We've got un-killable static arty crews (against all other design) in the base sector (against design), that can auto-target arty units, which are supposed to counter emplacements, where the emplacements have increased HP and can be repaired by AFK units.

For a thought expermanet, let's apply this to OST as a tank commander. Let's see how dumb it is.

1. Grens can now repair vehicles (but not buildings).
2. Can now promote a vehicle to 'command vehicle'.
3. Command vehicles can repair nearby vehicles.
4. HE rounds. Tanks can now load HE rounds (for free) to counter AT weapons/inf.
5. HS129B-3 attack run. 75mm AT-plane does an attack run. Stuns/damages engines on hit.

This doc would be insane; you'd probably have a 100% win rate after 15min. It also ignores most of the design choices in the game (tanks not beating literally everything, needing support, etc.), invalidates expensive units (any call-in heavies), and would be generally insanely annoying to play against, since the game would always turn into a tank spam with a few grens to cover the flanks and repair.




*emplacement rant*

Emplacements, other than the MG emplacements and decrewable arty, shouldn't be in the game. At all. Period. As I've said a thousand times before, CoH is about maneuvering, flanking, tactics, and general mobility - not camping. Units that encourage this are counter to the games design, and really hinder the games ability to reach its full potential as a competitive game. Yes, this also includes FRPs. There isn't anything wrong with FHQs for healing/reinforcing, but being able to retreat to those positions destroys the core mechanic of forcing a retreat. Once a retreat loses its tactical value, there's no point in trying for one.

Suggestions:
Mortar pit - replace with normal mortar
Bofors - replace with something similar to the ISG/Pak Howie
17lb - replace with mobile AT gun bigger than 6lb
FlaK emplacement - replace with truck w/ Flak on it, but has setup time (and low HP).
Pak43 - replace with repair bunker
Schwerer HQ - remove weapon, massively increase HP/Armor (since it doesn't heal or repair things)

Watch the game become much more dynamic.

Voted OP.

Why? Because emplacements (other than MG and decrewable arty) shouldn't be in the game. At all *covered at end*. Regardless, let's look at this commander.

1. Mainline inf can repair and build. Alright, this isn't so bad, although at 0 points it allows for even earlier mortar pits and such. Kind of neutral, IMO, since the repair is limited, and super early emplacements aren't that great.

2. +40 armor +30% HP. Why. Why would you do this. So now the already tricky to kill emplacements (especially early game) are even harder to take out. The game's about tactics, micro and maneuvering; not being AFK.

3. Forward Assemblies can repair things. At the same time as the Armor/HP buff you get a building that can repair said emplacements. Yea, no way this is a bad stacking ability. Imagine if there was a doc that gave command panzers AoE repair. Just a terrible, terrible idea. You don't even need to "micro" (really, not micro) your engies. Just use your AFK buildings to repair your AFK emplacements. 10/10 Esports ready.

4. Counter-barrage. So now the AFK buildings that are repaired by AFK engies can AFK counter-barrage. Not only this, but it works on base buildings, which is horribly, insanely broken. Why? Well, let's look. Firstly, on smaller maps, it covers literally the ENTIRE map. How do you counter emplacements? Usually arty. Now you can't counter it. Well, no problem, right? You just take out the arty with off-map. Oh wait, it can't be decrewed, and it's in the base sector (which banned arty units a while back) so it can't be hit by off-map. What is this? It's like whoever made this ability never played the game.

5. Precision arty. Oh look. An ability to stop anyone that somehow gets close to your city, or really anything at all.


It's not so much that it's blatantly OP (that counter arty sure is), it's that it goes against every single convention and game mechanic in the game. We've got un-killable static arty crews (against all other design) in the base sector (against design), that can auto-target arty units, which are supposed to counter emplacements, where the emplacements have increased HP and can be repaired by AFK units.

For a thought expermanet, let's apply this to OST as a tank commander. Let's see how dumb it is.

1. Grens can now repair vehicles (but not buildings).
2. Can now promote a vehicle to 'command vehicle'.
3. Command vehicles can repair nearby vehicles.
4. HE rounds. Tanks can now load HE rounds (for free) to counter AT weapons/inf.
5. HS129B-3 attack run. 75mm AT-plane does an attack run. Stuns/damages engines on hit.

This doc would be insane; you'd probably have a 100% win rate after 15min. It also ignores most of the design choices in the game (tanks not beating literally everything, needing support, etc.), invalidates expensive units (any call-in heavies), and would be generally insanely annoying to play against, since the game would always turn into a tank spam with a few grens to cover the flanks and repair.




*emplacement rant*

Emplacements, other than the MG emplacements and decrewable arty, shouldn't be in the game. At all. Period. As I've said a thousand times before, CoH is about maneuvering, flanking, tactics, and general mobility - not camping. Units that encourage this are counter to the games design, and really hinder the games ability to reach its full potential as a competitive game. Yes, this also includes FRPs. There isn't anything wrong with FHQs for healing/reinforcing, but being able to retreat to those positions destroys the core mechanic of forcing a retreat. Once a retreat loses its tactical value, there's no point in trying for one.

Suggestions:
Mortar pit - replace with normal mortar
Bofors - replace with something similar to the ISG/Pak Howie
17lb - replace with mobile AT gun bigger than 6lb
FlaK emplacement - replace with truck w/ Flak on it, but has setup time (and low HP).
Pak43 - replace with repair bunker
Schwerer HQ - remove weapon, massively increase HP/Armor (since it doesn't heal or repair things)

Watch the game become much more dynamic.

+1 for removal of emplacements and FRP

British Doctrines:

Slightly Overperforming: Advanced Emplacements Regiment. Mobile Assault Regiment.

Playable:

Underpowered and Unplayable: Royal Artillery Regiment, Royal Engineer Regiment, Special Weapons Regiment, Vanguard Regiment.

Reduce the slightly overperforming British commanders and make the other British Commanders actually playable!

Watch the game become much more dynamic.

It would also be almost completely symmetrical. The british faction would need to be completely redesigned from the ground up...it'd literally just be Ostheer with none of the advantages.

Since going to rank 4 in 2V2 as Axis I have played loads of different people.

The skill difference between a top 20 USF/Soviet player and a Brit player is INSANE. I have played top 10 brit players who are literally trash and rank 1000 with other factions. They are high with brit simply due to cancer doctrine. It's broken.

Amen, brother.

It would also be almost completely symmetrical. The british faction would need to be completely redesigned from the ground up...it'd literally just be Ostheer with none of the advantages.

Going to disagree there.

Brits would still be fairly unique. They have arguably some of the best scaling mainline infantry, they have engineers that are actually incredibly viable in combat vs. both vehicles and infantry, they have the whole tech-choice thing (which would still be mobile vs. defensive), and they'd still retain most of their late game diversity through commander choice. They'd also still retain their 'better in cover' system for infantry, too.

Would they be as unique as they are now? No. But that high level of uniqueness is what's causing most of the problems in terms of balance and game play mechanics.

British Doctrines:

Slightly Overperforming: Advanced Emplacements Regiment.

Hahaha

A faction and doctrine that let's rank 1000 scrubs shut the worlds best players down is 'slightly overperforming'

if Advanced Emplacements Regiment is 'slightly overperforming' then old Tiger ace was underpeforming by miles.

what i found this commander is OP is

1. counter battery have no real cds, it can return fire at all the indirect fire fire at allies, so if there is indirect fire war going on, you see it fire at non stop. this thing need a cd that can only counter 1 piece at a time and have cd between since it is free. like i have 3 piece indirect fire, firing at ally, got counter at all 3 pieces, try to saturation attack to emplacement is useless against that counter battery. also i think the CP need increase for this ability to make it come later.

2. invulnerable repair engineer at forward assembly, I never never see them got kill, today i see those guys got direct hit from 2 mortar fire, while standing in mid flame of flame nade and they still repairing. WTF!! also auto repair the emplacement need go away, make it only able to repair vehicles. you already gives the IS ability to repair emplacement, give IS a chance to use it. OKW mech HQ can't repair other HQ and the repair crew die from any damage, this should be same to forward assembly. it is just too OP atm.

1320MP + 36 popcap to counter 400mp mortar pit?

1320MP + 36 popcap to counter 400mp mortar pit countered by 0MP + 0 popcap base buildings

So we've reached the fifth page of yet another Advanced Emplacement Regiment balance thread without any useful balance suggestions.

First, Relic has put substantial time and money into modeling and creating the Mortar Pit, Bofors, and 17 Pounder and integrating them into the UKF (not to mention Pak43/Schwerer/2cm Flak). The chance of Relic replacing any of these with more mobile options outside of a doctrine is so close to nil that asking for it may as well be whingeing.

Secondly, heavy defensive and artillery-focused play provides a low-skill introduction point for new players. Whether or not they move past this phase is up to them but the playstyle should still be supported for this reason. It should, of course, be slightly less potent than more micro-intensive strategies.

Thirdly, calling something "cancer" is an intellectually lazy way of articulating a problem. These aren't the official forums and you should be able to clearly express why a given strategy is a problem and what should be changed about it.

Let's move on to some balance suggestions:

Emplacements in General:

Mortar Pit:

- Mortar Pit Auto-fire range reduced from 115 to 80
- Mortar Pit cost reduced from 400mp to 350mp
- The 2nd mortar weapon used for the barrage now has the same kill radius as the other mortars (bugfix)

The auto-fire change means that you must actually use micro to use the Mortar Pit to its fullest and the cost reduction helps offset the new micro requirement.

Bofors:

- Health reduced from 1000 to 720

The Bofors is currently slightly too cost efficient at 280/30.

17 Pounder:

- Pop cost reduced from 20 to 15

I think this change speaks for itself.


Advanced Emplacement Regiment:

Improved Fortifications:

- 30% health bonus removed
- Cost reduced from 75 munitions to 45 munitions

The armour bonus is significant enough on its own, requiring you to use grenades or artillery against emplacements if you don't have tanks. At the same time, 75 munitions is slightly too much for just the armour boost.

Counter Battery:

- Counter-Battery initial delay increased from 0-5 seconds to 10 seconds
- Counter-Battery cooldown between salvos increased from 4 seconds to 10 seconds
- Counter-Battery range increased from 250 to 1000

These changes will equalise Counter Battery performance across all map sizes while ensuring artillery has sufficient time to move before and between salvos.

Further adjustments could be made to Counter Battery and the Forward Assembly engineers is this commander is still too strong after these changes.

Do you agree or disagree with these suggestions? What would you change (and why)?

Hahaha

A faction and doctrine that let's rank 1000 scrubs shut the worlds best players down is 'slightly overperforming'

if Advanced Emplacements Regiment is 'slightly overperforming' then old Tiger ace was underpeforming by miles.

Be glad he called something from the brits overperfroming.
To hear him tell, brits are the weakest faction in coh2 hisotry.

1320MP + 36 popcap to counter 400mp mortar pit?

let me quote myself:

Well, you failed to see few things.

1. It wasnt 1320 MP vs 400MP. It was 1320 MP vs 400MP + 450MP (Assembly with engis) becasie he sacraficed map presence for a building to make emplacemnt more powerful. Next time try to barrage assembly first.
2. Second thing is map presence. By barraging Pit, he almost always had 1 squad there to repair which means lower map presence.
3. Bofors with the upgrade died really, really fast.
4. Pit killed just 12 models so it kinda sucked so much for all the investments made to keep it alive.

So in other words, it's not 1320 vs 400.
It's 1320 vs 850 + lower map presence.

Ask yourself. You want to face Vickers, 3 IS, Bofors and Pit or Vickers, 3IS, Pit and anything mobile for 900MP?

Emplacements in General:

Mortar Pit:

- Mortar Pit Auto-fire range reduced from 115 to 80
- Mortar Pit cost reduced from 400mp to 350mp
- The 2nd mortar weapon used for the barrage now has the same kill radius as the other mortars (bugfix)

The auto-fire change means that you must actually use micro to use the Mortar Pit to its fullest and the cost reduction helps offset the new micro requirement.

This is an exceptionally-good suggestion for the Mortar Pit.

Sure, it needs some way to outrange the opposition, but the (fixed) barrage can still take care of it (maybe reduce the cooldown a bit, since it is very long at Vet0).

However, with the auto-fire change it will not willy-nilly wipe units halfway across the map.

Bofors:

- Health reduced from 1000 to 720

The Bofors is currently slightly too cost efficient at 280/30.

The Bofors is indeed very cost efficient at 280/30.

If we go for the performance-nerfing route, the Popcap might also have to be decreased slightly (from 10 to 8-ish?)

Otherwise, we could remove the teching cost altogether and integrate it to the cost of building the actual unit (which will make replacing or spamming Bofors more costly).

17 Pounder:

- Pop cost reduced from 20 to 15

I think this change speaks for itself.

Apart from the popcap issue, the 17 Pounder also suffers from being the only AT gun in the game that can be sniped by tanks and AT guns.

I don't know if that can be solved somehow. However, they also have the option of making the 17 Pounder a copy-pasta of the Pak 43 (decrewable etc) and call it a day.

Advanced Emplacement Regiment:

Improved Fortifications:

- 30% health bonus removed
- Cost reduced from 75 munitions to 45 munitions

The armour bonus is significant enough on its own, requiring you to use grenades or artillery against emplacements if you don't have tanks. At the same time, 75 munitions is slightly too much for just the armour boost.

That health boost is pretty annoying. However, at the same time I don't think that the armour boost makes any difference at all (i.e., it will totally not be worth it).

The only building where resilience to small arms fire even matters is the Forward Assembly (since it can't brace).

Counter Battery:

- Counter-Battery initial delay increased from 0-5 seconds to 10 seconds
- Counter-Battery cooldown between salvos increased from 4 seconds to 10 seconds
- Counter-Battery range increased from 250 to 1000

These changes will equalise Counter Battery performance across all map sizes while ensuring artillery has sufficient time to move before and between salvos.

The cooldown nerf is a good idea (btw, what is the cooldown on similar counterbarrage abilities from the OST?)

My main gripe vs this ability is that it doesn't tax the player who uses it at all. If I were allowed to make a change to the commander I would replace Counter-Battery with Royal Arty concentration barrage.

I would also rebalance Royal Arty concentration barrage as follows:
- Remove the warning flare
- Fires no airburst shells (since we remove the flares, we don't want pinpoint arty. Also allows the player to tech something other than Anvil)
- Fires more HE shells than the normal ability (something like 6 shells per howlitzer instead of 3 shells)
- Do something about scatter, so that the ability can be used to counter barrage

That way, by fixing Advanced Emplacements, we are also partially fixing a neglected non-DLC commander at the same time.

I played 4v4 where i spammed bofors 3 mortar pits and 3 assemblies with repairs, no amount of arty could kill this cancer.

Balance.

Counter Battery is the true problem of this commander imo, you just can't use the counters for the emplacements, and if the Brit is just about a bit skilled you will have no chance breaking through.

Oh and password protected trenches