OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken

Command Panther Aura does not increase the bonus is the same from VET0 to VET5. Simply at vet 5 infantry get the same bonus as vehicles .
Further more the Command panther reaches vet 1 at 3120 (14% more)Xp while a Panther at 2730.

I am assuming you claim that the bonuses listed at https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide are no longer up to date?

Vet0: +20 sight range, +10% speed, +10% ac/de-celeration
Vet2: +20% accuracy
Vet3: -20% reload
Vet4: +5 range
Vet5: Infantry affected too

If so, what are the exact bonuses? It should be easy to test the Vet3 & Vet4 aura benefits using Cheatmod; I just can't do it right now.

Finally imo the Aura system should be benefit from experience. Aura units should start with lower bonuses that should progressive become better. Else this unis will difficult to balance since they will either be too strong early normal in late game or to good early useless late.

In the current system unit preservation for aura units that can be replaced serves little purpose and they can be used like normal units

Sure. If we want to proliferate aura units in the game, we could make it so that aura benefits from Veterancy. This means that the aura effect:
- At Vet0, the effect of the aura could made lower than what it is now.
- At Vet3, the effect of the aura should probably not exceed the bonuses at Vet0/Vet2.

If you disagree, where would you draw the line for Vet3, according to the Command Aura benefits?

DefAmatory post invised

Back to topic.

Sure. If we want to proliferate aura units in the game, we could make it so that aura benefits from Veterancy. This means that the aura effect:
- At Vet0, the effect of the aura could made lower than what it is now.
- At Vet3, the effect of the aura should probably not exceed the bonuses at Vet0/Vet2.

If you disagree, where would you draw the line for Vet3, according to the Command Aura benefits?

Imo unit should benefit from veterancy according to their role.

The change I would make would be to lower the Vet bonuses of aura units and starting bonuses.

Then the player could use his command unit either defensively to support other units or risk the unit aggressively to vet it. The bonuses to aura imo should be for all levels of veternacy for the exact numbers I cant say for sure but for Panther it should be lower from the current ones at VET5.

Command panther completely rapes churchills and comets with mark target, also two shots a firefly before it can even fire two shots back.

Really something about it needs a nerf or at least tied to T4. You shouldn't be able to call one in once all your trucks get destroyed (neither should you be able to have command panther+KT).

Really OKW late game is pretty stronk, vet 4-5 needs some nerfs and they need some counters to maxims in return.

Find me a decent high-tier replay (post OKW-rework) where a Vet-3 CP did not manage to turn a match to the favour of an OKW (for an example that demonstrates the opposite, you can watch the Cup #12 EU finals).

In all 3 games, both players picked OKW vs Soviets. In all 3 games both players picked the Spec Ops doctrine. Neither of the players even bothered to field STG Obers cuz there was no t4.....
- In all games, the Vet0 Command Panther already proved to be more than efficient for its cost (because of the Coordinated Fire ability)
- In the last game, you can see how a Vet2 Command Panther manages to turn a losing game.

Game 3 spoilers:
Show Spoiler

Well since i had time to spare i watched the ESL finals.

All i can say is: you're wrong.

Not in a single game did the command panther reach vet 3, so these finals are by no means proof vet 3 panthers are a "death-switch" which in itself is already enough to render your point moot in the first quoted post.
Secondly, the only time the commmand panther did reach vet 2, it died at the end of the game. Okw still won by vps but if there were more vps, it would be over for okw.
Furthermore, that game shows how it's still possible to kill a vet 2 panther, so there is that.

Finally, in both games were the command panther got any veterancy (second game saw no command panther actually, it was over before that) were 30+ minutes game, and the only reason the command panther did have any impact was because it was used as a call-in unit, skipping t4 as to build a large army (luchs and stuka were build in both games).
Seeing as the call-in nature is not the point of contention here (nor the mark target ability) the replays show not how the command panther aura veterancy gain is in any way shape or form problematic.

So, in conclusion: finals don't show vet 3 panthers, making the point moot. Furhtermore, the only time the panther did reach vet 2, it died (with 2-3 m4c shermans still alive at that point, so "luvnest throwing his m4c army away is also false).

So ye, no replays, no proof, no nothing.

I expected more from you Smith.

10 CP for the command panther is way to early.

You do know that the aura only works on vehicles until vet 5 I believe. The fuel investment will surely decrease the possible vehicles on the field, and it still has the same weaknesses as the original panther. Now I do agree that the aura is a bit strong, but it is made up with the heavy investment, of MP and fuel. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't used it in about 2 weeks or so. If you truly want to see a broken command tank, go into the attribute editor and dig up the command KT, ugh.

Not in a single game did the command panther reach vet 3, so these finals are by no means proof vet 3 panthers are a "death-switch" which in itself is already enough to render your point moot in the first quoted post.

Vet3 is the definitive point where a death-switch occurs (for any type of army composition that contains vehicles).

However, when you are fielding a Luchs-heavy army, a Vet2 Command Panther already massively improves the performance of your Luchs.

This is because:
- Luchs has an accuracy-mostly-based attack vs infantry (thus 20% higher-accuracy = 20% more DPS) -- this is unlike other tank cannons (where it's a scatter based attack)
- Reload speed on Luchs does nothing (Luchs fires its shots in bursts, just like the Ostwind)

Now, if you re-watch the replay carefully, again:
- Mark the time when the Command Panther reaches Vet2
- Observe the map control / resource situation
- Notice the double Luchs placement (since they benefit from free accuracy, there is no need to close in on the conscripts to harass)
- Both Luchs are still in range of the Command Panther aura, and they still manage to shred Conscripts at long range, even though there are obstacles between the Luchs and the conscripts.
- On a scatter-based attack (i.e, if the attack "misses", most of the shots would land on the vaultable wall obstacle between the Luchs and the conscript squads)

Secondly, the only time the commmand panther did reach vet 2, it died at the end of the game. Okw still won by vps but if there were more vps, it would be over for okw.
Furthermore, that game shows how it's still possible to kill a vet 2 panther, so there is that.

Sure. What of the cost-vs-benefit analysis?
- How many Tanks did Luvnest have to throw at the Command Tank just to take it down?
- How many of these tanks survived?
- How many attempts before the successful one did Luvnest make before he could take down the Command Panther?

- Wouldn't you say that Nogano had dropped his guard towards the end of the game, when he got outflanked? Could it be the end-game fatigue/feeling he was going to win anyway due to VPs?

Finally, in both games were the command panther got any veterancy (second game saw no command panther actually, it was over before that) were 30+ minutes game, and the only reason the command panther did have any impact was because it was used as a call-in unit, skipping t4 as to build a large army (luchs and stuka were build in both games).
Seeing as the call-in nature is not the point of contention here (nor the mark target ability) the replays show not how the command panther aura veterancy gain is in any way shape or form problematic.

In my OP, I explicitly mentioned that a Vet0 Command Panther is already good enough. Game 1 & Game 2 prove my point.

What I am explicitly targeting is Command Panther veterancy. I have a feeling that Game 3 replay also proves my point, but you seem to believe otherwise. I would love to be able to summon Luvnest in this thread so that he could contribute his analysis of the game.

PS: The reason I even bothered mentioning that no STG Obers were fielded was because:

It's a small difference indeed, made further worse that the call-in nature (bypassing tech) is not appliciable in the command panther situation because of the ober soldaten upgrade.

The commander it comes in is a bit of a mis-match, seeing as it has an upgrade for obers which need to be build in t4, but also a call-in which rather replaces a same unit out of t4. The point here being that taking full effect of this commander requires t4 which deminished the effect of going for the call-in command panther.

Clear the thread.
If you have problems with another user use PM.
Katitof, even if you have a point, refrain from insulting others.

While the thread is about OKW command PV i'll make an analysis of the whole commander.

-Radio silence: a cute ability i'll say which might work depending on the opponent. Not too expensive, so it's not bad rather than niche.

-Flares: best recon in the game.

-Infiltration nades: IMO this is a reason why it not necessary to get Flak HQ to get Obers. It's not a replacement but greatly boost AI performance for 15muni.

-Vampir: reason why you want to get Obers

Now getting into the command PV.
I'll say it arrives 1/2 CP too early for it's performance. What makes it really good at 1v1/2v2 is IMO the overperforming mark vehicle (50% damage is too strong for cost).
IMO auras in general should affect allied teammates but with a reduced effect (50%).

@Smith I think that the command PV having aura which scales it's actually good. What should be tweak instead is raw performance of the tank itself (for example: increase reload time or increase cost) if it's gonna remain to have strong based aura and skills.

@Zarok47 while the game is balanced around 1v1/2v2 at most, take in mind there are changes made to improve 3v3/4v4. I don't think we saw too many Elephants/JT on 1v1 but nevertheless those units were nerfed to improved teamgames.

It is good to see this topic approached again. I made the same topic, albeit less well written or researched, and it was partially derailed.

I completely, 100% agree with Mr. Smith here. In team games this is even more of a problem because it buffs Allied units. At vet 2 you are basically making JPIV's unkillable, and KT's require 1.5 or 2x as many TD's to approach to even deal damage. The MT ability on the CmdPanther all but guarantees that USF units will die like flies. In even larger games it can produce a JT with BUFFS, how do you even begin to stop that? Also the Tiger Ace receives these benefits in team games as well, and it also increases to a point of ludicrous potency.

The CmdPanther is a hold out from when OKW was first made. It has received no (I could be wrong) changes since then. The fact that at vet 5 it buffs infantry is laughable, and more so with the new OKW changes.

The unit should function like other aura units, a single buff, and it should only function on your own units. Its MT is already so potent that you could purchase it simply for that and the additional sight it picks up from itself.

CmdPanther is too good, it needs to be adjusted, it becomes even more powerful in team games.

Example:
Played a recent game against 1 American, 1 Soviet, 2 Brits on Steppes. The game went long, and I called in the CmdPanther. I used it to force every other player in the game to dive to try to kill it. At which point I blitzed out and let Volks and rakentens go to work. Sat behind tree lines marking vehicles. Once the CmdPanther reached vet 3 it was unstoppable. I would push forward with a KT and mark the most expensive tank with the CmdPanther, and immediately it would vaporize (both fired simultaneously on a comet from the front and gave it heavy engine damage, it started at 100% health). The RoF buffs, with the speed buffs, and the site buffs meant the KT was always able to close gaps and 50% more damage on a KT shot doesn't leave many survivors, especially when its firing quite a bit faster. Any tank that even tried to get away was immediately caught by the blitzing CmdPanther. By this point in the game I was taking on 2 or 3 players worth of tanks at a time, and killing 3 or more before forcing them to retreat at which point I would push forward. I was one shot from vet 4 at the end of the game, and that was because they had no tanks left. Also got a vet 5 stuka with a vet 3 CmdPanther stacking it, was so fast on reverse I thought it was a bug.

Command Panther feels thematically similar to the Tiger Ace. I like the design and impact it brings, but I feel like people don't treat it with the same respect and urgency that they would an ISU, or Jagdtiger, and that's why they they get upset by it. Would you send a single Firefly after a Tiger? Then don't do the same to a Command Panther.

It actually performs a role much more similar to the previously mentioned heavy TD's (hard vehicle counter) due to its 'mark target' ability. It's not a squad wipe machine though, like a Tiger, Pershing, IS2, or Crocodile and compared to other heavy tanks, it's more fragile (though very nimble so micro can make it very survivable). A perfect blitzkreig tank really....

But if it's it going to have the impact of a heavy tank call in, maybe its CP should be raised a bit to reflect that.

You know the russian mark target is more expensive and worst than the CP mark target right? panther is 50% damage and mark target is 30%.

Command Panther feels thematically similar to the Tiger Ace. I like the design and impact it brings, but I feel like people don't treat it with the same respect and urgency that they would an ISU, or Jagdtiger, and that's why they they get upset by it. Would you send a single Firefly after a Tiger? Then don't do the same to a Command Panther.

It actually performs a role much more similar to the previously mentioned heavy TD's (hard vehicle counter) due to its 'mark target' ability. It's not a squad wipe machine though, like a Tiger, Pershing, IS2, or Crocodile and compared to other heavy tanks, it's more fragile (though very nimble so micro can make it very survivable). A perfect blitzkreig tank really....

But if it's it going to have the impact of a heavy tank call in, maybe its CP should be raised a bit to reflect that.

The Vehicle is extremely dangerous when rushing into the enemy with all your armor. USF for example doesn't stand a chance.

what happend to the command KT?

You want more kingtigers karl?

I think Sprice lost a command Panther, mainly to a mine, in his final semi-final game.

It's a nice bit of kit and the +20 sight range is a bit strong, particularly as it applies to itself! Haven't tested it but I don't think the UKF's command vehicle buffs apply to itself, and the nerfs are extreme.

Frankly though when I face this commander it is the 15 muni (!) infiltration grenades which hurt most. You expect to face nasty Axis armour. Haven't seen too many Vet 3s so the vet requirements must be extreme.

It's a nice bit of kit and the +20 sight range is a bit strong, particularly as it applies to itself! Haven't tested it but I don't think the UKF's command vehicle buffs apply to itself, and the nerfs are extreme.

The only Aura unit that applies buffs to itself is the P4 command tank. (not counting pay-per-activation abilities like "Heroic Charge" etc)

The P5 just simply gets bonus sight range as a base stat (i.e., the P5 does not reap the benefits of its vetting aura.

You know the russian mark target is more expensive and worst than the CP mark target right? panther is 50% damage and mark target is 30%.

I really don't want to turn this into a thread of Soviet abilities/units that have overperforming counterparts in other armies/compositions

The list would be too long, and people would nitpick on minute differences (e.g., "But Mark target lasts 60 seconds, while Coordinated Fire only lasts 20 seconds!!"). The thread would get derailed, and we'd get back to square one; where we still have an über aura in the game.

PS: If somebody does point out such minute off-topic differences, please don't be baited to reply