Soviet faction

The soviet Stock units( especially tanks) are way out matched, and the old faction OH/Soviet needs veterancy revamp to catch the new factions

If you build 5+ maxims every game, yes. But is that a really fun way to play? No.

But I dont like spamming maxims as SU.

My favorite strat is ppsh cons +1 shock squad, with fire support from one or two 120mm mortars. Grab a SU75 for AT instead of ZiS, maybe 2 if you need it, then T4. Pretty strong if you stay down your opponents throat.

But I dont like spamming maxims as SU.

My favorite strat is ppsh cons +1 shock squad, with fire support from one or two 120mm mortars. Grab a SU75 for AT instead of ZiS, maybe 2 if you need it, then T4. Pretty strong if you stay down your opponents throat.

Update your game, then you gonna see 26pop cap for double 120mm


Still, I have no idea you can make this build strong agaisnt decent opponent. All infantry running with ppsh? You gonna be shreded by long range units.

I do not understand you logic. As noted

But

So Blalord, you want to say that all the factions that have solid stock troops is "clone faction"?

SU doesnt have solid strock troops ?

- Cons are great, 6 man (better survival, can recrew weapon more easily), hoorah, can deny cover/garrison for 15 muni, can build green cover, AT nades, can merge so dedicated support troops can stay longer.

- Maxims, a 6 Man MG with good damage, very durable, good suppression, can reposition quicly

- 6 Man mortar, very durable, accurate

- Sniper: Can countersnipe without risking of loosing 360 MP in a countersnipe.

- 6 Man AT gun, durable, can use indirect fire on infantry

But I dont like spamming maxims as SU.

My favorite strat is ppsh cons +1 shock squad, with fire support from one or two 120mm mortars. Grab a SU75 for AT instead of ZiS, maybe 2 if you need it, then T4. Pretty strong if you stay down your opponents throat.

You're gonna need a ZiS against a Luchs/222 rush way earlier than you can field an SU-76 let alon SU-85. Against the 222 it's not an absolute must but I'd recommend it.

SU doesnt have solid strock troops ?

- Cons are great, 6 man (better survival, can recrew weapon more easily), hoorah, can deny cover/garrison for 15 muni, can build green cover, AT nades, can merge so dedicated support troops can stay longer.

- Maxims, a 6 Man MG with good damage, very durable, good suppression, can reposition quicly

- 6 Man mortar, very durable, accurate

- Sniper: Can countersnipe without risking of loosing 360 MP in a countersnipe.

- 6 Man AT gun, durable, can use indirect fire on infantry

-Cons are made of paper and can't do any damage. You must pay for molotovs and AT grenades, wehr gets them for free.

-Maxims are the single pillar keeping Soviets afloat early game.

-The soviet sniper has no camo and gets 1 shotted by mortars, also made of paper and will lose 1 man every time

-6 man AT gun will bounce off everything because RNG is so axis biased, also barrage is an absurd 60 munitions.

Stop. Just stop. Stop justifying the uselessnes of the soviet faction and how pathetic its units are compared to everyone else.

And it was fine when we had SU and OST. Both with useful stock which can do the job and better doctrinal units.
Since WFA it's no longer case becasue USF,OKW and UKF have everything what's best in their tiers.

Imagine if OST had non doc Stug E, Puma, Osttruppen and Tiger. No more struggle agasint USF blob, aye? And that's the thing. SU and OST need to relay on doctrines. OKW, USF and UKF don't.

Tell me where SU and OST have to rely on doc and not OKW, USF, UKF

SU and OST does have MG / Mortar / Sniper / Great indirect Fire, Medium tank, AT tank

Things are quite simple for SU faction... I won't say its weak or strong overall, By no means its totally underpowered but neither overpowered.

The fact is that SU has a rather large set of under-performing units.

1) Cons : They are cheap and their utility is great BUT they scale worse in late game than any other faction's infantry in game, while not being the strongest infantry and the utility they got isn't for free (some upgrades needs you to pick certain commanders like PPSh). SU needs to rely on doctrine infantry or upgrades for Cons. By late game the casualty rate of Cons is like feeding your opponent XP.

2) Penals : They start out better than Cons but they scale way worse into late-gate. They come from T1 which means no early AT unless you go T1->T2. Penals simply end up in the 2nd place even if you compare them to themselves!

3) T-34/76 : Its dirty cheap for a medium tank but its the weakest of all mediums and comes rather late (cause of the necessity of T3 and T4 being rather expensive).

4) SU-85 : While its very good aganist med-tanks its expensive and comes late to be considered a dedicated medium-tank-killer. It was designed for heavy-tank hunting but its performance isn't good enough for that role.

5) BM-13 Katyusha : A barrage of rockets that simply isn't on par with other rocket artillery. Not a bad unit but surely weaker that other rocket arty.

The Soviets largely rely on Commanders/Doctrines to make up for their weaknesses. Compared to other factions, were Doctrines augments armies, the Soviet choice of commander is more essential and quite often isn't there to augment your army but to cover-up certain liabilities (ex. doctrinal infantry, call-in tanks).

Tell me where SU and OST have to rely on doc and not OKW, USF, UKF

SU and OST does have MG / Mortar / Sniper / Great indirect Fire, Medium tank, AT tank

I think I don't need to explain you great shoch value of Puma from Mobile Defense, Command Pz4 from any doctrine with it or Osttruppen. Game changing units, all doctrinal.
SU? KV8, IS2, Guards.. Almost every doctrine gives you something special what will help you very much.

OKW? I catch myself very often that I have laready 12CPs and still no doctrine, becasue I have everything in tiers.
Same for USF with exception of Calliope.
UKF? Again, you can deal with everything with stock units. Doctrines just give you something extra, not a must-have units like for SU and OST.

-Cons are made of paper and can't do any damage. You must pay for molotovs and AT grenades, wehr gets them for free.

-Maxims are the single pillar keeping Soviets afloat early game.

-The soviet sniper has no camo and gets 1 shotted by mortars, also made of paper and will lose 1 man every time

-6 man AT gun will bounce off everything because RNG is so axis biased, also barrage is an absurd 60 munitions.

Stop. Just stop. Stop justifying the uselessnes of the soviet faction and how pathetic its units are compared to everyone else.

- Cons are durable and they do damage on medium and short range, you have free Merge and Hoorah.

- Maxims are one tool, like others unit

- Soviet sniper has camo, don't stay in Mortar fire, Wher die in one Su sniper shot, Sov dont die in one Wher sniper shot. ( Sov T1 is not that attractive despite sniper, but the building is "cheap" and can be built mid game to counter annoying sniper play )

- Little biased argument, Zis gun is good, 60 ammo for multiple indirect fire shot is logic.

- Stop stop to whine, and start play

SU doesnt have solid strock troops ?

It discussed a hundred times. Conscripts after the 10 minute, nothing more than nade throwers, point capture and merge support. Maxim will be OP if not rifle and flame nade + retreat drop. Mortar is some sort of OK and you need AT-gun to counter ARMOR...no infantry. German and brit snipers easy give odds soviet pair. It was OK before OKW came with 5-6 men squads. I dunno what you all trying to dispute.
Yes spam maxim as hell and enemy probably will cry like schoolgirl. If you have lot skill spam cons and win first 10 minutes. Stop spamming and you loose. This boring like hell. I stop play then I realized what all my successful game looks same - i build maxims, may be cons, take some Zis or mortars, go T3, then quad or T-70 after T4 and Katusha or T-34-85 spam. I have all soviets docs but 90% time i use Guard Motor, much rare Shock Rifle and almost never Soviet Combined Arms. It's no fun at all. It's boring.

And you say - "Hey you maxim is so stronk! And you cons s-o-o-o numerous! Why you even need somthing else?!"
P.S.

It discussed a hundred times. Conscripts after the 10 minute, nothing more than nade throwers, point capture and merge support. Maxim will be OP if not rifle and flame nade + retreat drop. Mortar is some sort of OK and you need AT-gun to counter ARMOR...no infantry. German and brit snipers easy give odds soviet pair. It was OK before OKW came with 5-6 men squads. I dunno what you all trying to dispute.
Yes spam maxim as hell and enemy probably will cry like schoolgirl. If you have lot skill spam cons and win first 10 minutes. Stop spamming and you loose. This boring like hell. I stop play then I realized what all my successful game looks same - i build maxims, may be cons, take some Zis or mortars, go T3, then quad or T-70 after T4 and Katusha or T-34-85 spam. I have all soviets docs but 90% time i use Guard Motor, much rare Shock Rifle and almost never Soviet Combined Arms. It's no fun at all. It's boring.

And you say - "Hey you maxim is so stronk! And you cons s-o-o-o numerous! Why you even need somthing else?!"
P.S.

I do and i do great ( rank 44 in 2v2 for example as SOV ), 3 Cons, 2 CE, Maxim, 1 Mortar early game

If you go maxim spam and get bored, well, its your business

Are we really having the "cons good, utility too good for them not to suck" discussion again?

Cons are so good and there is nothing wrong with them, this is why they are currently huge part of meta, like.. basic infantry of all other armies. Oh wait, they are not, its the maxims, because cons fall behind every other squad in game after 10 mins.

Can I choose to have utility of free nades and weapon upgrades instead of merge and sprint?

And saying merge is free is wrong.
Using merge costs 20mp per men transferred.
You are also not sustaining your presence, because you have exactly as many models as you had before using merge on the field.

Are we really having the "cons good, utility too good for them not to suck" discussion again?

Can I choose to have utility of free nades and weapon upgrades instead of merge and sprint?

Can Wher have the 4 of them ?

Are we really having the "cons good, utility too good for them not to suck" discussion again?

Can I choose to have utility of free nades and weapon upgrades instead of merge and sprint?

And saying merge is free is wrong.
Using merge costs 20mp per men transferred.
You are also not sustaining your presence, because you have exactly as many models as you had before using merge on the field.

you forget the partially downgrading elite troops part

Can Wher have the 4 of them ?

I'll gladly trade oorah for stock weapon upgrade that doesn't suck ass.

And it was fine when we had SU and OST. Both with useful stock which can do the job and better doctrinal units.
Since WFA it's no longer case becasue USF,OKW and UKF have everything what's best in their tiers.

Imagine if OST had non doc Stug E, Puma, Osttruppen and Tiger. No more struggle agasint USF blob, aye? And that's the thing. SU and OST need to relay on doctrines. OKW, USF and UKF don't.

More like imagine if ost had a stubby p4 instead of the long barrel, no mg42 for grens and the panther armour and pen was only SLIGHTLY better than the stug... But its ok cause you can get an lmg42 in doctrine a or c but the long barrel p4 is in doctrines d and e.

Soviet dont have scaling into the late game, their units are supposed to overwhelm amd crush but their economy punishes losses just as hard as any other,their at power is capped at 200 non doc yet azis armour goes up to 375! All axis AT is guaranteed to pen (like 100% of the time) every non doc thing the soviet can throw. Reliance on doctrines is in the past, soviet need to become a faction of its own that is complete. Doctrines need to be for flavour not so it can have the same chance at winning as the other factions have


The game should be balanced with commanders out of the equation- all core units vs the enemies core units THEN introduce commanders to the balance team and one by one bring them up to date

Wide variety? Yea, build loosy T1 or build more or less good T2, then spam maxim to survive... Not so much options for USSR to play and win, actually.

Two type of grenades? Ha-ha, two types of worst grenades in game, which we should also pay for, and pay a lot! Molotov is worse than any nade in game - slow throwing, no impact damage (OKW's flame nade for expample has impact damage)... And AT-nade is way worse (look at stats), than free Fausts.

Two types of mines? One type of sweeper dealing with them really good.

Multiple types of armour? Yea, worst midle tank in game T-34-76, AT tanks with melted tower, T-70, which is worse than some Axis light cars... Yea, a lot of options in vechicles. And of course - all good tanks only by doctrines.

And how is having of "MGs, mortars and AT guns" is benefit? Ostheers have same MGs, mortars and AT guns too, and they are better than soviet analogs, again. All those units are SUPPORT weapons, not core units. And with core USSR has serious troubles.

And it's easiest way to end any discussion by only 3 words - learn2play. Veeery reasonable, bro.

Okay Miss let me put it this way.

You are completely wrong with everything that you have said about the soviet faction which make me think you are either analysing them on paper against other factions and have come to this conclusion or you don't play at a competitive level.

If you ask anyone who plays this game to a decent level they will completely disagree with you and come to the conclusion that you are just playing the faction incorrectly.

Soviets have been consistently strong for a very long time and that is a fact.....unless you are for example between the rank of 1000-2000 and don't really have a grip on the game and understand how it actually works.

Just so I have not got this completely incorrect it would be interesting to know what level you play at in terms of rank?

L2P

How original