1v1 / 2v2 - Anyone using Churchills?

Now that most of the bugs are fixed, Anvil is plain amazing (Advanced Warning is still bugged, though).

Just like others in this thread mentioned, you mostly go Hammer for the Comet; all Hammer benefits are great, but tank-related. You mostly go Anvil for the side-benefits (which still work without an armoured force, and work even better when you start rolling your tanks out).

Churchill is a decent-ish tank. It's not too cost inefficient for what it does (soak damage, and deal damage back if somebody tries to ignore it/blitz past it). It just needs to award a bit less veterancy to the opposition (so that it doesn't act like a long-range vet-piñata).

I would rank the 3 variants as follows:

1) Churchill AVRE
- Excellent vs infantry blobs/support guns
- Doesn't have to stay around long to get the job done
- Might require smoke/concealment/warspeed for maximum effect

2) Anvil Churchill
- Actually has a decent gun that deals damage to tanks
- Not too expensive
- Smoke helps in the late-game when the front armour will get penetrated anyway
- Grenade helps to demolish ambient buildings if the enemy is relying on call-ins

3) Churchill Crocodile
- In theory it should be the best. Long-range flamethrower damage; right?
- In practice, you can't control any of the important guns
- Main gun deals 50% damage; can't be controlled
- There are multiple flamethrower weapons. You can only directly control the weakest one
- Most expensive of the lot

"Anyone using Churchills"?
"Is there a reason to go for Churchills apart from damage soaking unit? "

Which is "Why Anvil over Hammer."

With an attitude like that no wonder everyone was happy to see you leave.

Which is "Why Anvil over Hammer."

Or you can get anvil and not bother making Churchills as well.

Why use stock churchill when I can go Hammer, get Comet and pick Vanguard for Crocodile?

This post needs more attention.

If I go anvil I do it for the Super Engineer upgrade, not so much the Churchill (which can easily be replaced with good doctrines).

Which is "Why Anvil over Hammer."

With an attitude like that no wonder everyone was happy to see you leave.

Haha
Dat guy getting personal over a topic about Churchills . Oh boy, .org please don't ever change.
But seriously sonny, maybe you should make a topic about Anvil over Hammer? In the meantime, I can read this topic see why other people prefer one TANK above the other TANK which was basically the question.

Lots of love and kisses to my beloved, brownish internet friend, Dusty .

Show Spoiler

I've gone Anvil quite a few times recently, but always regretted building the Churchill.

Takes 4 Shrecks on the way in and 4 on the way out generally so it has no advantage over the Comet. Send one in against fresh VolkSchrecks and you'' just end up facing the same schrecks on significantly higher veterency once you've repaired the bugger. I can almost hear my infantry swearing at me!

Anvil is good if you like your artillery or have lost your IS and need to upgrade your remaining engineers, though it tends to be an 'oh shit I need some way to take a Schwerer out' for me otherwise.

Sure there's other reasons to go Hammer other than the Comet, especially when mills bombs alone are so expensive to unlock ( and crap) you might as well get a better grenade as part of a package. War speed saves you and is great fun on the squish etc.

Trouble is the tank choice is still 70% of the package, and the other 30% is situational.

When Vet wasn't working properly you can kind of see why the Churchill might have been a bit much ( or was it just the usual mob moaning?) but with infantry being a great deal more difficult to take out now the original Churchill is pretty much what is needed.

You're asking the wrong question.
Heavy engineers being one of the most attractive reasons to go anvil naturally leads to building a churchill or two. The high hp isn't a liability when engineers ca repair faster.

But keep in mind you give vet like a pinata now that they have lower chance to bounce shots (which I agree with as previously they were too hard to take out for the cost). They don't have the shock factor like the croc though regular Churchills have decent AI capability. I would go anvil for the heavy engineers for the croc + FF build, sure. But this again goes back to the question, why would you go regular churchills?

Definitely needs a buff or a cost reduction, I find it better to get a Croc from Special Weapons and then a lot of Cromwells since I prefer using Sappers with the Heavy upgrade and making a lot of emplacements, Firefly is also one of the more useless or at least under-performing for it's cost British tanks, too slow turret rotation and rate of fire un-vetted, and you should try to get something with Sherman Armor to vet 3 and then keep it alive until the very end of the game, ain't happening most of the time. At least the Jackson doesn't lose or gain major performance boosts with vet and it doesn't hurt me as much when I need to replace it.

Also to people saying "how about the Tulips" yeah ok sure fine give me 60 ammo for the upgrade and then 100 for each shot which is mostly based on luck and then we'll talk about it being OP or even useful, it's useful, I agree, but on very rare occasions. I'd much better prefer a flat buff to the tank itself and a nerf to the ability or even removal to it, it hurts your ammo deposits too much losing it or even using it, 2 shots and you want a bit more and you would get one of the better British doctrine artillery abilities, I'm just giving up too much for something which would have less effect than half of the artillery ability's cost.

Elefant or JT wrecks it. But have seen them in 2s.

I would like to see some kind of change to the vanilla churchill to make it more useful.

Maybe better armour, speed or main gun vs inf idk, but it needs something. Most engagements see you spearheading it as a "sponge" only to kill a few volk models while his blob+Jagdpanzer gains vet 5 after a few volleys.

At least the AVRE/Croc can wipe support weapons and deal with blobs when used smartly, I really struggle to do anything with the normal Churchill to make it cost effective.

It's basically a slower more expensive cromwell with moar health, and one that locks you out of the comet, war speed and tracking (which is awesome on fireflies).

Also anvil in general just sucks, if 25pdr's get a buff and the movement penalty on engies gets scrapped or at least reduced I might invest in it.

Its speed and short range negate much of its armour/hp benefits.

Ironically the Comet is probably more survivable, especially with war speed.

I think it needs some-kind of panzerschrek resistance. Like extra +50-60 armor when hit by an infantry AT-weapon. I understand that AT-guns and TDs should counter it with no problems, but seeing it being owned by schrek blobs is kinda upsetting.

1280 hp, 320 armor

510 mp 180 fuel

16 pop


it's a decent amount of hp and armor, but nothing ridiculous like the 1600 hp we had before.

16 pop because 18 pop is too high for a pure meatshield. the tiger is 19 pop.

You're asking the wrong question.

The tanks are a large part of teching choice sure, but anvil and hammer have other useful things in them that dictate why you would choose one or the other.

Heavy engineers being one of the most attractive reasons to go anvil naturally leads to building a churchill or two. The high hp isn't a liability when engineers ca repair faster.

Though war speed and the target tracking thing in hammer are arguably better in a lot of situations.

are the anvil bonuses good? yes
Are bonuses good enough to excuse the weakness of churchill? hardly. Hammer is just a much better package as it provide good bonuses and a good tank to use.

What is a regular churchill??

All I ever see is Crocs and very rarely (by myself) avres. Is this a new commander that I've missed?

Seriously though, there is a reason you never ever see it in any high ranked game. People say it acts as a meatshield, for what? Your firefly? Either your opponent has the same range like the firefly and targets it directly or he hasent and just drives by your churchill. If its only sight you care about there are many more easier options.

The churchill was strong pre nerf, i honestly didnt find it OP then either, 2 stugs ate it alive and were so happy for their "earned" vet 3. The same with okw's jp4 or commando panther. Not to speak of elefant and jagdtiger...

Yes, it would shred packs and shreckblobs for the unprepared. But in that regard it was little different then an US player going for sherman spam and a tiger shows up. Sometimes you just need to adapt to counter and that doesnt make a Unit OP. And with it beeing tied to the last tech its not like it shows up midgame or you dont see the opponent is going for late game tanks.

It was barely acceptable when they nerfed its armour. But when they nerfed its armour, increased the price and fixed the grenade (which was the nr 1 reason the churchill got any cind of meaningful kills) it got outright useless for its cost.

Even on the topic of heavy engineers, they have a cost and a very noteable weaknes with their speed, thats almost a meere sidegrade. I know that even ig it were attainable without tech i would by far not always give it to my sappers.

There are many units that dont pull their weight, but in the churchills case its sad as it is a)the main reason for a endgame tech decicion unlike for example penals who are in the sniper building as well and t1. And b) it used to be good. So it did work once.

No one uses Churchills because the Comet is so much more worth it, if you do not have the upper hand already and a masive support army you need a competitive tank that is at least a match for Panthers.

Also, in case you're playing against OKW, the Churchill gives Schreck Volks easy veterancy, it's just too slow and yes can soak up "some" damage but once it is in actual useful range you already have to retreat again and repair it.

Definitely needs back the old price tag and/or armor increase.

I'm not sure cost is all that relevant...

I'd happily pay 250 fuel for something that was a useful impact unit ( and to differentiate it from the Comet).

Even if they reduced it's current cost considerably I'm not sure I'd build it as it seems to be counterproductive in many ways.

<snip>

Also anvil in general just sucks, if 25pdr's get a buff and the movement penalty on engies gets scrapped or at least reduced I might invest in it.

Actually, the (Anvil) Airburst shells got a decent buff last patch (listed under bugfixes). I don't have access to the precise stats right now. However when I did the calculation some weeks ago, their potency felt like this:
- Airburst shells one-shot-kill models on the same radius as the lethal radius of the light gammon bomb
- They also deal a tiny bit of damage (16?) on the furthest reaches of the visual effect (7-10 radius)
- This means that Airburst shells will also blind tanks (i.e., can move but can't shoot) at a significantly increased radius.

(Previously it used to be that Airburst AoE = HE shell AoE; i.e., they sucked)

Yes. The ability is still highly situational. However, when you need it, you now, at least, get your munitions' worth of fireworks.

PS: Airburst shells have an instant travel time almost (unlike HE shells). The delay is only due to waiting for the howies to face the right direction.

Hmmm.... Do they blind the Schwerer too?

Given the proximity of either a sniper or an infantry section to the barrage you'd think chucking a smoke shell in there would be a no brainer...

Hmmm.... Do they blind the Schwerer too?

Given the proximity of either a sniper or an infantry section to the barrage you'd think chucking a smoke shell in there would be a no brainer...

Pretty certain they don't.

There's actually quite a few different 25pdr abilities in the files, mostly unused. For example there's AP shells and smoke shells.

Yes. The ability is still highly situational. However, when you need it, you now, at least, get your munitions' worth of fireworks.

Interesting, now if they allow you to fire in the FoW again artillery reg+anvil might actually be worth it for peppering med trucks and command tank blobs

Really my main beef with the 25pdrs is just how slow and obvious they are, you walk up, throw a smoke grenade which is pretty much a giant sign for "I am firing here" and then 10 seconds later something happens.

Comet willie pete still seems like the safer and more reliable team weapon counter