Mortars/Howies: Nerf autoattack, maybe buff barrage

Reducing the ROF for auto-attack would be fine.

As ISU1-152 and Leig/Pack changes demonstrated adding micro to balance units is a bad approach...

The way im seeing it is a redistribution of assets- atm there is no real reason to use barrage, additionally mortars have a real chance of just evaporating squads (especially Wehr squads) reducing the kill radius but maybe better saturation (say 20 damage across most of the aoe? Bigger aoe?) make it more support fire. Barrages could unlock its kill mode (like the mg42 apfuckyou rounds) this is all completely untested and just throwing out potential changes

You buying units for support, they support you. What is wrong here.

You buying units for support, they support you. What is wrong here.

Let's say you have 2 players, the "Mortar guy" and the "Victim guy".

The mortar guy only ever does one thing:
- she decides to allocate some manpower to buy the mortar
- no significant micro investment is required from the mortar guy
- free wipes (over time)

Instead, the victim guy:
- has no option to buy no-micro support vs the mortar guy (well, until Advanced Emplacement Regiment hits..)
- instead, she needs to constantly micro her units all the time within the range of the mortar
- yellow cover is automatically denied, and with no micro involved from the mortar guy

The list goes on. My point is that for every other unit/ability in the game:
1) You pay a price to buy the unit
2) You need to micro the unit properly or it gets damaged/lost
3) Damaging abilities require you to be in close range, or require you to actually aim the ability
4) (sometimes) you even pay a price per activation

By using mortars you are only paying for option #1. Moreover and without any micro investment you never have to worry about #2 and #3.

Actually, I'll give you a more biased example.

Mines, in this game, cost around 30-60 munitions a pop. Suppose that Relic designed minelayer unit with the following utility
- You are allowed to place that unit anywhere on the map
- The minelayer automatically tosses free mines anywhere within 60-ish radius every X seconds
- The minelayer mines deal the same amount of damage as normal mines, which also happen to require micro/a unit nearby to place

My question to you is:
- What would an appropriate price for that minelayer unit be?
- Do you see the problem with having such a low-micro unit introduced to the game?

Actually, I'll give you a more biased example.

Mines, in this game, cost around 30-60 munitions a pop. Suppose that Relic designed minelayer unit with the following utility
- You are allowed to place that unit anywhere on the map
- The minelayer automatically tosses free mines anywhere within 60-ish radius every X seconds
- The minelayer mines deal the same amount of damage as normal mines, which also happen to require micro/a unit nearby to place

My question to you is:
- What would an appropriate price for that minelayer unit be?
- Do you see the problem with having such a low-micro unit introduced to the game?

Interesting point.
I would argue that you have to stumble across a mine whereas mortars... Stumble across you
Additionally a 30mu upgrade available to all factions renders Any mines useless but some factions lask a realistically cost effective counter

Also once you place a mine its there, a mortar you can position with the moving line and continue to get set and forget wipes

sorry just have to point out that the analogy is perfectly fitting. Perhaps you don't understand it?

Well then i'll point out to you, no, it isn't.
I stated my reasons, telling me "you're wrong" doesn't really make a very convincing case.

come on ppl. does any one really care about ost or soviet mortars? they are easy killable need to retreat if any infantry comes close and can be taken by enemy. The only thing that everyone hate is mortar pits, that need about 1 minute to be killed with 3 flame enges, or 2 paks + scout (1 pak will be lost for sure).. and all that works if there is no other forces close ))
close this thread alredy )

come on ppl. does any one really care about ost or soviet mortars? they are easy killable need to retreat if any infantry comes close and can be taken by enemy. The only thing that everyone hate is mortar pits, that need about 1 minute to be killed with 3 flame enges, or 2 paks + scout (1 pak will be lost for sure).. and all that works if there is no other forces close ))
close this thread alredy )

You should have read yesterday's rage post against 120 mm mortar.
Also the guy that said 120 mm range was = le FH 18 range; 100 = 250

You should have read yesterday's rage post against 120 mm mortar.
Also the guy that said 120 mm range was = le FH 18 range; 100 = 250

but we are not talking here about ppl that are under 500 lvl in boards, are we? )

I agree with most of the OPs points. However, when it comes to soviet and Ostheer mortars, they certainly do require micro with the placing of them due to their short range.

I like that the OP is trying to decrease rng squad wipes but increase the consistency of the damage. Half the time a mortar pit wipes a squad in team games the owner of the pit doesn't even realize he got a wipe because he isn't paying attention. He doesn't have the satisfaction of having earned a wipe and the victim feels totally ripped off for being beaten by rng.

You buying units for support, they support you. What is wrong here.

That's like saying you by tanks to attack and they attack. Wait a second, they only attack if you move then to the front and micro them. The OP is saying the indirect fire does all the work for you and requires little to no micro. That's why he wants to increase effectiveness of the barrage ability (user input) and decrease the effectiveness of the auto fire (AI input).

That's like saying you by tanks to attack and they attack. Wait a second, they only attack if you move then to the front and micro them. The OP is saying the indirect fire does all the work for you and requires little to no micro. That's why he wants to increase effectiveness of the barrage ability (user input) and decrease the effectiveness of the auto fire (AI input).

1. That will change nothing in their common effectivness.

2. That will promote blobbing and will reduce effectivness of support teams play.

3. Lelic don't know how to nerf/buff stuff correctly, expect it to be up or op.

1. That will change nothing in their common effectivness.

2. That will promote blobbing and will reduce effectivness of support teams play.

3. Lelic don't know how to nerf/buff stuff correctly, expect it to be up or op.

I disagree with all three of your points.

1. It will change the amount of frustrating one shot squad wipes from AUTO FIRING indirect. The barrage will have the potential to wipe full squads since it requires good micro and should be rewarded.

2. The barrage will become MORE effective against blobbing and the auto fire will deal more consistent damage to blobs (high dmg profile overall by lower lethal AOE).

3. Relic has come a long way from the start and is doing an excellent job balancing the game. Like every other company, they need to make money and it seems they like to use OP commanders to get it. The AEC is a good example of a unit that has been brought to a good state.

I would would like to see less whining and tearing down of relic and instead more constructive feedback.
They probably stopped listening to most of the community because no matter what they do, someone in the audience finds a reason to complain. I have noticed that the balance section has been rather empty aside from things like Sim City being an issue (I think it is too). This implies (at least to me) that the game is continually moving in the right direction in terms of balance.

Didn't we already try this? and it sucked?

2. The barrage will become MORE effective against blobbing and the auto fire will deal more consistent damage to blobs (high dmg profile overall by lower lethal AOE).

Blobs are not static weapons and they can move, i don't think mortar or leig or pack howitzer barrage will be effective against them at all, but they will annihilate all support teams and infantry in cover. Great changes i would say.

3. Relic has come a long way from the start and is doing an excellent job balancing the game. Like every other company, they need to make money and it seems they like to use OP commanders to get it. The AEC is a good example of a unit that has been brought to a good state.

Pack howitzer and leig supression overbuff is just another example of how right i am and you don't.

yes. more micro for these units please.

currently mortar auto-attack is only way to deal with op-sniper and op-grens

Didn't we already try this? and it sucked?

If a similar change was ever trialled before in the game, I can't remember it. However, I haven't been around since the very start. Could you tell us a bit more about what that change looked like?

I agree with most of the OPs points. However, when it comes to soviet and Ostheer mortars, they certainly do require micro with the placing of them due to their short range.

The exact AoE profile change I proposed is arbitrary (it just happens to correspond with the AoE profile of a bugged unit). Naturally, values can be tweaked, and some care should be taken to adapt the AoE profile to the other characteristics of the other mortars. For instance:
- OST and stock Soviet mortar have lower range
- Mortar Pits have insane range and can 1-2 their shells and still wipe units; (may need to desynchronize the shells even more, or make each mortar target a different squad)
- The Leig also has insane range but small AoE to begin with
- The Pak Howie has great AoE but shorter range and it's quite expensive.
- The 120mm mortar has bigger AoE radius but fires the slowest of the lot (also expensive).

To reiterate, my goal with proposing some AoE profile changes is:
- Given that we will probably never see fixes to squad formations, at least find some way to nerf low-micro squad wipes
- Make yellow cover seem a bit less of the deathtrap that it is today (nowadays you have to micro your units OUT of yellow cover, which is a bit tricky due to sticky cover).
- Retain the ability of mortars to punish static play.

Thus, if a mortar shell hits a clumped up squad, at most 2 models would die instantly. The rest of the squad will still be completely-bruised up (at below 20% HP), and would have to retreat. With respect to blobs, the mortar would still retain its profile as a blob deterrent.

I would agree with your point. I doubt anybody could forget those double ISGs.