Hopefully this longstanding issue will be dealt with in next patch.
The teching cost is simply too high.
Wehrmacht T4
2 Jan 2016, 21:31 PM
#1
Posts: 1705
2 Jan 2016, 22:39 PM
#2
Posts: 4928
It was supposed to be a bonus tier, Wehrmacht was perfectly capable of surviving on Panzer IV's. This isn't the case as much anymore, the gap between Panzer IV and Sherman is smaller; most importantly the British have their non-doctrineal Comet, which shits all over the Panzer IV and needs a Panther to stay in the game.
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> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
3 Jan 2016, 14:43 PM
#3
Posts: 1705
Thats exactly what i mean,panzer 4 is very modeiocre for its price - and not even that good vs infantry anymore.
On top ostwind is not very good with long reloads and accuracy.
Only stug is performing properly.
On top ostwind is not very good with long reloads and accuracy.
Only stug is performing properly.
3 Jan 2016, 17:40 PM
#4
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Thats exactly what i mean,panzer 4 is very modeiocre for its price - and not even that good vs infantry anymore.
P4 is unchanged for well over a year now when it comes to its killing potential, its just as effective as it was in 2014 and 15.
Nothing changed here.
If you want to know what medicore and not even good vs infantry is, let me point you to soviet T4, there should be rusty, unused T34/76 there.
On top ostwind is not very good with long reloads and accuracy.
Don't shoot it on the move, it does the job fine.
As Mr. Someguy said, ost T4 is an extra, thing you go for in long games, not something you should be getting every game reliably. It offers heaviest stuff out of all armies that only OKW can contest(not counting brits as they got rain of nerfs that washed them out of game for now).
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
3 Jan 2016, 23:11 PM
#5
Posts: 1705
P4 is unchanged for well over a year now when it comes to its killing potential, its just as effective as it was in 2014 and 15.
Nothing changed here.
If you want to know what medicore and not even good vs infantry is, let me point you to soviet T4, there should be rusty, unused T34/76 there.
Don't shoot it on the move, it does the job fine.
As Mr. Someguy said, ost T4 is an extra, thing you go for in long games, not something you should be getting every game reliably. It offers heaviest stuff out of all armies that only OKW can contest(not counting brits as they got rain of nerfs that washed them out of game for now).
It doesn't really kill infantry that fast,did spreading out formations have anything to do with that?As for t-34=just compare the price man.Cromwell is better than p4 -and by what logic.
It doesn't do job fine for its price due to huge reload,shooting on move has nothing to do with that.
T4 can't be called extra because it has wehrmacht's only counter to allied blobs lategame -panzerwerfer .Thus it needs to be more accessible.Give gens 5 man upgrade lategame or pzgrens to counter vetted allied infantry blobs and you could then say extra.not before.
3 Jan 2016, 23:42 PM
#6
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
Cromwell is better than p4 -and by what logic.
Yes, this is terrible! By what logic do the Brits have no rocket artillery! By what logic do the Brits have 0 blob counters and no snares? Want to go on with your logic?
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3 Jan 2016, 23:58 PM
#7
Posts: 2561
The only thing that could be improved, is the amount of resources it takes to go to T3 then T4, but T3 is just as good if not better then what every other faction gets at that time and is plenty to get you through the game by itself. T4 is a luxery advanced tier that isn't always necessary.
Sure, not having access to rocket arty can be a weakness, but all factions need to pay extra if they want access to all their stuff. Soviets and USF might not even have access to their AT guns depending on what teching choices they make. USF and UKF don't even have access to heavy arty units at all unless they compensate with a commander and they make due just fine.
A straight reduction to T4 would cause rushing it to be too powerful, but if they can find a way to lower the resource cost through T3, I think that would be good. Maybe a alternate T4 battle phase in T3 with a bit a fuel shaved off.
Sure, not having access to rocket arty can be a weakness, but all factions need to pay extra if they want access to all their stuff. Soviets and USF might not even have access to their AT guns depending on what teching choices they make. USF and UKF don't even have access to heavy arty units at all unless they compensate with a commander and they make due just fine.
A straight reduction to T4 would cause rushing it to be too powerful, but if they can find a way to lower the resource cost through T3, I think that would be good. Maybe a alternate T4 battle phase in T3 with a bit a fuel shaved off.
4 Jan 2016, 00:07 AM
#8
Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13
A straight reduction to T4 would cause rushing it to be too powerful, but if they can find a way to lower the resource cost through T3, I think that would be good. Maybe a alternate T4 battle phase in T3 with a bit a fuel shaved off.
I don't think it would, at least not in smaller games. The units that come from T4, aside from the Panzerwerfer all have very high costs and their counters will be arriving by the time they do it the field. You need around 115 fuel for the tech and building alone, then you need to add an additional 160-175 fuel on top of that and this is not including MP costs.
4 Jan 2016, 00:41 AM
#9
Posts: 1124
I see people saying that tier 3 is just fine, tier 4 is a luxury. That tier 3 your able to win games. Then I see how your supposed to go panzerwerfer to counter blobbs. Since almost every game there is blobbing. Especially USF. So basically from what I see. Is i have to go the obvious tier 1. Then of course tier 2 for AT guns since there is a fast light tank on the field 9/10 times. Then tier 3 because we have the best tier 3 in the game. But how am I supposed to counter blobbs again? With the joke ostwind?
Oh and Cromwell exceeds the p4. Self spotting. Good A.I. and AT capabilities. The smoke round it can fire blinding AT guns. Fast as hell. And i see them being built even in the late game. P4 doesn't need a buff btw..
Oh and Cromwell exceeds the p4. Self spotting. Good A.I. and AT capabilities. The smoke round it can fire blinding AT guns. Fast as hell. And i see them being built even in the late game. P4 doesn't need a buff btw..
4 Jan 2016, 01:20 AM
#10
Posts: 2561
I see people saying that tier 3 is just fine, tier 4 is a luxury. That tier 3 your able to win games. Then I see how your supposed to go panzerwerfer to counter blobbs. Since almost every game there is blobbing. Especially USF. So basically from what I see. Is i have to go the obvious tier 1. Then of course tier 2 for AT guns since there is a fast light tank on the field 9/10 times. Then tier 3 because we have the best tier 3 in the game. But how am I supposed to counter blobbs again? With the joke ostwind?Because there are more ways to counter blobs then just the panzerwherfer. good play Mgs and mortars work just fine, and you can always choose a faction with artillery too.
Oh and Cromwell exceeds the p4. Self spotting. Good A.I. and AT capabilities. The smoke round it can fire blinding AT guns. Fast as hell. And i see them being built even in the late game. P4 doesn't need a buff btw..
Once again USF and UKF are much worse in this case and they make do. Ostheer can too.
4 Jan 2016, 01:24 AM
#11
Posts: 2561
It's not so much about the first panther as much as the second one. Just look at what happened with OKW last patch. If accumulation of heavy hitting armor happens too fast it can spiral into a huge late game dominance.
I don't think it would, at least not in smaller games. The units that come from T4, aside from the Panzerwerfer all have very high costs and their counters will be arriving by the time they do it the field. You need around 115 fuel for the tech and building alone, then you need to add an additional 160-175 fuel on top of that and this is not including MP costs.
4 Jan 2016, 11:04 AM
#12
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
Cromwell is better than p4 -and by what logic.
Really? I wouldn't say so.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
4 Jan 2016, 11:05 AM
#13
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
T4 for ostheer is a luxury for games of 1v1. Even for 2v2s is quite hard to achieve.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
4 Jan 2016, 15:28 PM
#14
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
T4 for ostheer is a luxury for games of 1v1. Even for 2v2s is quite hard to achieve.
I don't think so. It's an additional 45 fuel and 100mp to unlock the currently most broken unit which will cause a shower of death upon the enemy. If you do proper teamplay with an OKW partner you will be quite powerful. I'm quite sure the Ostheer Panzerwerfer can come at the same time as the OKW P4. (and just 5 fuel more than the first Ostheer P4)
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5 Jan 2016, 10:09 AM
#15
Posts: 174
could be worse,
could be soviet T4 with nothing worthwhile in it
could be soviet T4 with nothing worthwhile in it
5 Jan 2016, 11:07 AM
#16
Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1
Yep, Katiusha and Su-85 are not worthwhile I guess. 
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
5 Jan 2016, 11:23 AM
#17
Posts: 1063
Yep, Katiusha and Su-85 are not worthwhile I guess.
Currently nobody use SU-85 in 1v1 when SU-76 does it job at cheaper price and Katy is not exactly a reliable weapon like Pzwerfer or Stuka.
5 Jan 2016, 12:26 PM
#18
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The teching cost is simply too high.
Imo an alternative solution is worth trying:
Instead of reducing cost, change the units available from it.
Imo the current issue with T4 is not simply the actual high cost of teching but the combination of high tech cost, high units cost available and specialized role of units...
Having that said a I thing it worth trying leaving cost as is but moving Brumbar to t3 and Ostwind in T4. This will change the almost compulsory linear building order of Otheer allowing either to go T3 and still have access to a Soak damage/barrage support unit in the Brumbar or avoid building t3 and going for an Ostwind that can help until a Panther can be built...
It will also make Brumbar (and probably Ostwind) more attractive since currently it see little usage.
5 Jan 2016, 12:54 PM
#19
Posts: 322
Ideal response from developers;
Building cost reduced to 200 MP and 45 Fuel
Panzerwerfer cost increased to 400 MP and 115 Fuel
Everyone happy
Building cost reduced to 200 MP and 45 Fuel
Panzerwerfer cost increased to 400 MP and 115 Fuel
Everyone happy
Brummbar is very powerful
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