Penal Battalion a completely different approach

so that you have clung to the name - penal and try to make them worse (osttrupen analogue), rename penal to the riflemen or the assault group and make them ranged unit

Strelki: A six-man squad, they are the staple infantry unit of the Soviet Union. Basic infantry squad, capable of dealing damage to every unit. Cost : 270 Icon Manpower Small.png

There was a thread a few weeks back about Soviet T1 where we tested how it would work if penals and guards were swapped.

Guards had to be nerfed to a point that they were effectively Penal Battalions, but the kicker was the unit had a pathway to upgrade: real grenades, DP-28s and PTRS. (I ultimately kept PTRS as a doctrinal upgrade for the unit.) It worked out rather nicely so long as one had to upgrade for DP-28s, nades, and PTRS through teching.

Penals currently get to upgrade into flamers. This, while powerful, doesn't do much tactically. They kill infantry better, if they can survive long enough. But that's it. Also, conscripts already have fire with molotovs, plus they get AT nades, and with doc, PTRS or PPSh. Penals don't get squat.

Penals currently get to upgrade into flamers. This, while powerful, doesn't do much tactically. They kill infantry better, if they can survive long enough. But that's it. Also, conscripts already have fire with molotovs, plus they get AT nades, and with doc, PTRS or PPSh. Penals don't get squat.

Penal battalions were used during WW2 for example in the first waves of attacks against German positions. I am sure they also had other weapons than a flamethrower or satchel charges. Of course they hit mines in the first wave and suffer a lot of casualities during their attacks, but I don't believe they attacked without sufficient weapons.

I think that the Penals need something, so that people will use them in automatches.

Penal battalions were used during WW2 for example in the first waves of attacks against German positions. I am sure they also had other weapons than a flamethrower or satchel charges. Of course they hit mines in the first wave and suffer a lot of casualities during their attacks, but I don't believe they attacked without sufficient weapons.

I think that the Penals need something, so that people will use them in automatches.

Penal COMPANIES is what you speak of.
Penal battalions were actually well equipped, just given tasks they weren't expected to come back from in one piece if at all.

Remember the movie The Dirty Dozen? This is kind of shit penal BATTALION would do.

Penal COMPANIES is what you speak of.
Penal battalions were actually well equipped, just given tasks they weren't expected to come back from in one piece if at all.

Remember the movie The Dirty Dozen? This is kind of shit penal BATTALION would do.

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The thing is, Conscripts are meant to be cannon fodders not Penals. They are meant to perform hard jobs, but they are not Osstruppen as they are mostly officers. Penal battalion =/= Penal companies. Their first implementation also reflected this, same cost as PG and DPS of G43 grens.
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Since there seem to be allot of different topics running, at the same time, in this thread will try to address them one by one.

Topic 1 name:
Imo if the Soviet army is to have a cannon fodder unit, that unit should be to cheap buy and to reinforce and should have the name "Penal battalion" and not "conscripts".
"Conscript" is a good name for a mainline infantry and Penal battalion a better name for a cannon fodder unit both thematically and historically.

Penal battalion may have consisted by trained men including demoted officers but they where used in frontal assault so their training did not help them allot and sustained heavy losses....

The first Penal battalion saw action in Stalingrad 1942 and lost 630 men more than 2/3 of its strength in just 3 days.

This is just my opinion feel free to disagree with me...

Since there seem to be allot of different topic running at the same in this thread at the same time will try to address them one by one.

Topic 1 name:
Imo if the Soviet army is to have a cannon fodder unit that, should be cheap buy and to reinforce and should have the name "Penal battalion" and not "conscripts".
"Conscript" is a good name for a mainline infantry and Penal battalion a better for a cannon fodder unit both thematically and historically.

Penal battalion may have consisted by trained men including demoted officers but they where used in frontal assault and sustained heavy losses....

The first Penal battalion saw action in Stalingrad 1942 and lost 630 men more than 2/3 of its strength in just 3 days.

This is just my opinion feel free to disagree with me...

I agree that "Penal Battalion" would be more thematically appropriate for a cannon fodder unit. Unfortunately, this would require Relic to rework two infantry units when they have not yet rebalanced one. Keeping the current Penal/Conscript roles and just adjusting Penal Battalions is a simpler solution and more likely to be implemented.

On that topic:

- Add a non-doctrinal version of the Conscript PTRS upgrade (two rifles, 50 munitions, mutually exclusive with the flamethrower)
- Slightly increase Penal Battalion long-range DPS
- Move Oorah to vet 1

These would fill a few holes in the current Soviet design. "Lacking the tools" should not be considered good faction design.

Since there seem to be allot of different topics running, at the same time, in this thread will try to address them one by one.

Topic 1 name:
Imo if the Soviet army is to have a cannon fodder unit, that unit should be to cheap buy and to reinforce and should have the name "Penal battalion" and not "conscripts".
"Conscript" is a good name for a mainline infantry and Penal battalion a better name for a cannon fodder unit both thematically and historically.

Penal battalion may have consisted by trained men including demoted officers but they where used in frontal assault so their training did not help them allot and sustained heavy losses....

The first Penal battalion saw action in Stalingrad 1942 and lost 630 men more than 2/3 of its strength in just 3 days.

This is just my opinion feel free to disagree with me...

You're right, but Relic knows basically nothing about actual history lol. It makes no sense for Volksgrenadiers to be better than Grenadiers when Volks squads were made from wounded veterans, elderly and teenagers historically.

You're right, but Relic knows basically nothing about actual history lol. It makes no sense for Volksgrenadiers to be better than Grenadiers when Volks squads were made from wounded veterans, elderly and teenagers historically.

It was more of a tossup. Some's ranks were recruits they didn't accept earlier in the war, others were personnel from other arms of the Wehrmacht that were sitting around without boats or planes to tend to, the latter of which on average acquitted themselves well with a high morale.

Snip

So you want conscripts to be grenadiers and Penals to be conscripts/Osstruppen? Been assigned "suicide" missions didn't mean they were unarmed or unprepared.

If you want to represent them thematically and historically accurate, increase their DPS, give them access to DPs, PTRS and increased the based received accuracy to Osstruppen levels. Make them more effective the fewer the models they have.
Conscripts merging with Penal squads or screening for them would be a more fair representation.

There was a thread a few weeks back about Soviet T1 where we tested how it would work if penals and guards were swapped.

Guards had to be nerfed to a point that they were effectively Penal Battalions, but the kicker was the unit had a pathway to upgrade: real grenades, DP-28s and PTRS. (I ultimately kept PTRS as a doctrinal upgrade for the unit.) It worked out rather nicely so long as one had to upgrade for DP-28s, nades, and PTRS through teching.

Penals currently get to upgrade into flamers. This, while powerful, doesn't do much tactically. They kill infantry better, if they can survive long enough. But that's it. Also, conscripts already have fire with molotovs, plus they get AT nades, and with doc, PTRS or PPSh. Penals don't get squat.

the flamethrower ignore defensive bonus on infantry, and that's a pretty handy feature.

Shock and guards are the soviet elite, while the penal is the anti-elite. Instead of being tough or skilled like the shock and guards, the penal's weaponry is tailored to counter stuff like the ober or king tiger. Flamethrower ignore received accuracy bonus while the satchel ignore armor.

I get that, but Combat Engineers have flamethrowers too, and they don't require teching to get it. If I need flamethrowers, I don't take a unit that can get flamethrowers to build a building to buy a unit that can get flamethrowers.

And I'd much much rather use demos and mines over a Satchel charge against axis armor. Not to mention T2 for ZiS.

Also, Obers are also like the definition of a hard counter to infantry that have to get to close range. If I'm playing OKW and my opponent is making Penals it's more an invitation to get Obers than anything.

Penal COMPANIES is what you speak of.
Penal battalions were actually well equipped, just given tasks they weren't expected to come back from in one piece if at all.

Remember the movie The Dirty Dozen? This is kind of shit penal BATTALION would do.

When I hear of Penals, I think about the "Burnt by the Sun"-movie trilogy or the books written by Sven Hassel. I thought that the difference between the Penal Company and the Penal Battalion was only the size.

The penals did of course very different tasks, and Relic could make some changes, so that the players use the unit. They could just make it to an unit that is different from the other Sovjet infantry units. Just add one non-doctrinal weapon (for example mid/long-range weapon) that they could buy for munitions.

Imo if the Soviet army is to have a cannon fodder unit, that unit should be to cheap buy and to reinforce and should have the name "Penal battalion" and not "conscripts".
"Conscript" is a good name for a mainline infantry and Penal battalion a better name for a cannon fodder unit both thematically and historically.

I agree that the conscripts are a good name for mainline infantry, because countries who had conscription had it in that way. For example Finland and Sweden did have it so during WW2 and during Cold War. For example Sweden could mobilize 850k soldiers in the 1980s if they needed to do so. When I did my military service in Finland, I was also a conscript.

So my opinion is that the Conscrips should stay in tier 0 and only make some changes to Penals, for example give them one non-doctrinal weapon.

First of all I would like to thank everyone for reading this thread and taking the time to participate on the debate.

Since there currently 2 threads running about Penals I would appreciate if general suggestions about Penal where posted on the other thread and this on is kept on debating the proposed idea.

The basics of the idea is that Penals instead of being an "elite" infantry they become a cheap infantry. In addition some of the utility of Conscripts is moved to Penals.

Charging (ourah) HMG to throw a molotov or a tank to throw an AT grenade would be thematically more appropriate for a cannon fodder unit going with the name "Penal battalion".

Fighting from cover cautiously would be more appropriate for a mainline infantry called "conscripts"

On the name:
If the idea is not implemented and the current "penal battalions" remain as an "elite" squad (better than mainline conscripts) I would suggest remaining the unit to something like "Regulars" indicating better trained troops in contrast with "conscripts" which indicates less trained troops.

Charging (ourah) HMG to throw a molotov or a tank to throw an AT grenade would be thematically more appropriate for a cannon fodder unit going with the name "Penal battalion".

I think both Conscripts and Penals did that during the WW2, only difference is that the Penals were convicted criminals. Of course their superiors gave Penal Battalions less attractive jobs to do. But the Conscripts were the mainline infantry and had these weapons, as they have in CoH2, but the problem is that the Penals does not have enough weapons or abilities.

Relic could also give molotovs and AT-grenades and a mid/long-range weapon (for munitions) to Penals in CoH2, so that people use them.

Fighting from cover cautiously would be more appropriate for a mainline infantry called "conscripts"

During my mandatory military service when I was a conscript, one platoon leader commanded us in an exercise to attack one position defended by a PKM-MG. It was totally suicidal and completely stupid, but I was glad that it was only an exercise. I hope they never do it IRL.

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I think both Conscripts and Penals did that during the WW2, only difference is that the Penals were convicted criminals. Of course their superiors gave Penal Battalions less attractive jobs to do...

It is worth noting here that allot of the people who served in Soviet Penal battalion where not actually "convicted criminals" (like the German ones). Allot of them where officer and soldiers that committed "military crimes" or civilian exiled for their political beliefs.

"Military crimes" was a rather vague definition and could include retreat in the face of annihilation...

Allot of them where completely innocent...The treatment these troops received was unjustified in most cases...

It is worth noting here that allot of the people who served in Soviet Penal battalion where not actually "convicted criminals" (like the German ones). Allot of them where officer and soldiers that committed "military crimes" or civilian exiled for their political beliefs.

"Military crimes" was a rather vague definition and could include retreat in the face of annihilation...

Allot of them where completely innocent...The treatment these troops received was unjustified in most cases...

Maybe I used the wrong word. I meant that the penals were convicted in the military courts, and that was the difference between them and conscripts in this case.

For the love of God can we replace the name Penal Battalion with Strelky (or regulars)?

For the love of God can we replace the name Penal Battalion with Strelky (or regulars)?

They'd have to record new lines or be nearly mute then, they lay on being part of Penal Battalions pretty thick.