Penal Battalion a completely different approach

Plus, SVT is way weaker than G43.

It is weaker and it should be weaker. Can really compare a doctrinal weapon upgrade that comes in 2 or 3 for an ammo cost with a weapon that comes in 6 from the start...

The issue with Penals is not their DPS close as you can see here compared to Rifles...

m1_garand_rifle_rifleman_mp--33.81 21.67 14.03 9.89 8.37
penal_troops_svt_rifle_mp-----35.98 23.66 10.36 6.09 4.67

they out DPS riflemen up to range 10+ while having more HP, costing less and reinforcing cheaper, with a flamer upgrade they probably out DPS even at ranges close to 20...

Let me start by saying that this is conceptual idea so any number presented here might be off and and I focused more on the idea and not numbers.

Problems:
Penals have been proven rather difficult to be useful. When compared to conscripts they have far less utility, are more expensive and they even come with a tech cost.

They are compared to conscript a more elite troops although that does not fit their historical role.

Aim: To make penal a unit that see more usage and better fits it history. Historically they where used more like cannon fodder than "elite" troops.

How to: By reducing the utility of conscript, by giving a new role to Penal and by retaining the flexibility of Soviet tech.

Faction changes:
Penal move to T0 conscripts move to T1.

Changes to conscripts:
Conscripts can no longer ourah or merge, the Molotov is replaced by a grenade (with or without a tech cost). Some price adjustments or performance (size DPS) might be needed.

Changes to Penal:
Cost down to 200, they get ourah (vet 0 or vet 1), Molotov, satchel, maybe AT grenade or satchel becomes easier to use vs vehicles and merge. They can also benefit from other doctrinal abilities like "hit the ground" and rapid conscription returns Penals.

Other abilities the benefit less from cover yellow green and garrison (80-90%) they also are penalized less from red and take reduced suppression (80-90%). Could even get better firing modifier while firing on the move.

They come with 3 mosin 3 PPsh (a bit worse than conscripts at mid maybe better at range 0).

Their role is to frontally attack the enemy using their molotovs and satchel and to reinforce other units via merge.

Problem: Forces Soviet to go T1 to have access to conscripts
Solution: AT certain level of veterancy (vet1 or vet2)or is built Penals can "redeem" themselves and for 40 manpower be upgraded to conscripts.
If T2 is built conscript can be built at HQ and Penals can be redeemed.

As I posted in begging this is only conceptual approach and there might be flaws in it. But in my opinion and gives penal a viable role, it gives Soviets more starting options and make them feel more like the WWII Soviet army that did use cannon fodder tactics...

that just seems like turning penal into conscript and conscript into penal.

that just seems like turning penal into conscript and conscript into penal.

Sort of more like Penal to Osttruppen and Conscripts to a better unit...an Osttruppen type unit fit a soviet armor more than Wer...

You're literally just asking for Relic to switch conscripts and penals, are you some kind of idiot?

All it does, is that people will start spamming Penals instead of spamming Conscripts.

A different approach at what?
Making conscripts a tech 1 and proposing veterancy as a way to make up for this?
Are you crazy?

The problem with Penals is that there is no reason to build them.
And how are they difficult to use? they are just useless, not difficult, they have no real mean other than being a hipster.

Solution: AT certain level of veterancy (vet1 or vet2)or is built Penals can "redeem" themselves and for 40 manpower be upgraded to conscripts.
If T2 is built conscript can be built at HQ and Penals can be redeemed.

What the actual fuck?

Sort of more like Penal to Osttruppen and Conscripts to a better unit...an Osttruppen type unit fit a soviet armor more than Wer...

this new arrangement is not really an improvement over the current setup. It's basically a skin and model swap. The t2 infantry is going to need a buff either way, might as well buff the penal.

Moving the conscript to t2 and then buffing it is hardly better than just buffing the current penal. The suggestion is just going to needlessly complicated matter.

The way things are at the moment cons = tank/utility penals = dps without the dps.

As a fix I'd -

Change the svt profile at range to match the m1.
Increase the recieved accuracy vet bonus abit.

Add 3 ppsh to the flamer package so its fits the unit
Add a ptrs package so if you go t1 light armour isnt gg no re.

You're literally just asking for Relic to switch conscripts and penals, are you some kind of idiot?
...

I don't debate with people who are rude and insulting...You will have to fix your attitude if you want me to respond...

...
Change the svt profile at range to match the m1.
Increase the recieved accuracy vet bonus abit.
...
Add 3 ppsh to the flamer package so its fits the unit
Add a ptrs package so if you go t1 light armour isnt gg no re.

....The suggestion is just going to needlessly complicated matter.

Imo you are missing the point of the proposed change...

Currently there is little room for Penals....Because:
1) Compared to all other Sov infantry the have a tech cost
2) In their current role as an "elite" infantry they have to compete with call in "elite" infantry and Sov have plenty of access to other more cost efficient infantry. Out of the 21 soviet commanders only 5 don't have access to doctrinal infantry or weapon upgrades for conscripts.
3) Their kit (flamer explosives) can be accessed by the more cost efficient C.E.
4) They are not cost efficient mainline infantry when compared to conscripts with their extreme utility. Conscript on the other hand cost about the same as Gren or volks and do not feel the role of a cheap troops.

Soviet have more access to call in "elite" infantry than any other faction and if Penal follow the same root they have to compete with the call in. Making them too good and there will be little room for call in infantry (give them PTRs why bother with guards or PTRs conscripts) make weak and why bother with going to T1 to access them.

Thematically Soviet and especially Penals sustain heavy loses, in game what Soviet are actually missing is an Osttuppen type of infantry...

So the my suggestion aims at creating room for Penals by giving them a new role that fits them historically and gives Sov what they are missing.

In order to do that they should be T0, cheap and conscripts should have their utility/abilities reduced and moved to Penals.

The detail might need rework since allot of patchs passed since O.P. but imo the direction is solid...

Their current role is not an 'elite' infantry. I think that's the confusion. They're like conscripts, which have specific utility.

Is your opponent spamming MG bunkers and throwing MGs in garrisons? Then penals have utility. Are you playing on Steppes? Then penals don't have utility.

Although I do agree that the Ostruppen always felt more like a Soviet design. The concepts for the factions seem so muddled.

Imo you are missing the point of the proposed change...

Currently there is little room for Penals....Because:
1) Compared to all other Sov infantry the have a tech cost
2) In their current role as an "elite" infantry they have to compete with call in "elite" infantry and Sov have plenty of access to other more cost efficient infantry. Out of the 21 soviet commanders only 5 don't have access to doctrinal infantry or weapon upgrades for conscripts.
3) Their kit (flamer explosives) can be accessed by the more cost efficient C.E.
4) They are not cost efficient mainline infantry when compared to conscripts with their extreme utility. Conscript on the other hand cost about the same as Gren or volks and do not feel the role of a cheap troops.

Soviet have more access to call in "elite" infantry than any other faction and if Penal follow the same root they have to compete with the call in. Making them too good and there will be little room for call in infantry (give them PTRs why bother with guards or PTRs conscripts) make weak and why bother with going to T1 to access them.

Thematically Soviet and especially Penals sustain heavy loses, in game what Soviet are actually missing is an Osttuppen type of infantry...

So the my suggestion aims at creating room for Penals by giving them a new role that fits them historically and gives Sov what they are missing.

In order to do that they should be T0, cheap and conscripts should have their utility/abilities reduced and moved to Penals.

The detail might need rework since allot of patchs passed since O.P. but imo the direction is solid...

all those are reasons why penal suck. This just mean the penal needs a buff, not a messy redesign.

increase the mid-long range dps on the penal. their abysmal dps is part of the reason why the penal are rarely taken.

So the my suggestion aims at creating room for Penals by giving them a new role that fits them historically and gives Sov what they are missing.

In order to do that they should be T0, cheap and conscripts should have their utility/abilities reduced and moved to Penals.

The detail might need rework since allot of patchs passed since O.P. but imo the direction is solid...

SU non doc are missing;

AT infantry
Scaling Mainline infantry
Long range dps
Short range dps

How does making penals a t0 spam unit fix the gaps?

I would say: give them AT mine, maybe also AI nade. That way they are not effective at units but are demolishion specialist that can blow up the way to victory for red army.

The other change that is worth suggesting is swapping penals with light AT gun in doctrines. That way players can play scout car and sniper oriented bulid without problems with 222s or luchs. The swap should also make penals more expensive give them higher dps so that they are as elite as shocks or guards. This also fits in general soviet design in locking elite infantry in doctrines, but in almost every doctrine. Maybe they could give them to all the other doctrines that dont have callin infantry too.

============================
Cons <-(*Swap*)-> Penals
Grens <-(*Swap*)-> Osttruppen
Tiger <-(*Swap*)-> Panzer IV
Is-2 <-(*Swap*)-> T-34/76
============================

This seems to be what we're going for, right?

increase the mid-long range dps on the penal. their abysmal dps is part of the reason why the penal are rarely taken.

Think we are starting to run in circles and we might have to agree to disagree. My point are:
1)Penal DPS is not abysmal up to range 20, they even out DPS the riflemen up to a range close to 15.
2)An increase in DPS will have to be O.P. for the unit cost since they are the only soviet infatry that has a tech cost to make them attractive and then the unit will overpeform even more in AI DPS due the huge accuracy vet bonuses. (they need a different vet bonuses and ability). For these reasons the unit is very difficult to balance.
3)Thematically the role of an "elite" unit does not fit Penal battalion. A "cheap" otsttruppen unit type unit is missing from the Soviet army, fit the Soviet and Penals thematically.

SU non doc are missing;
...
How does making penals a t0 spam unit fix the gaps?

The reason these unit are missing from the Soviet army is faction design. They are designed to fill the gaps with Doctrinal units....
On the other hand what they are missing both stock and doctrinal is a "cannon fodder" unit.

...
This seems to be what we're going for, right?

No this is not what I am suggesting. If you read the posts a bit more carefully you would see that the suggestion is that, instead of trying to balance Penals as an "elite specialized" unit it worth trying to give them a different role, that of a cannon fodder unit type. Reasons see above.

And thus give Soviets access to a more resilient flamer riflemen with a tech cost...

imo what I would like to see is penals get a flamer upgrade or an SVT upgrade. SVT would work more like G43's, where it fills the 2 weapon slots with the better rifles.

Think we are starting to run in circles and we might have to agree to disagree. My point are:
1)Penal DPS is not abysmal up to range 20, they even out DPS the riflemen up to a range close to 15.
2)An increase in DPS will have to be O.P. for the unit cost since they are the only soviet infatry that has a tech cost to make them attractive and then the unit will overpeform even more in AI DPS due the huge accuracy vet bonuses. (they need a different vet bonuses and ability). For these reasons the unit is very difficult to balance.
3)Thematically the role of an "elite" unit does not fit Penal battalion. A "cheap" otsttruppen unit type unit is missing from the Soviet army, fit the Soviet and Penals thematically.


The reason these unit are missing from the Soviet army is faction design. They are designed to fill the gaps with Doctrinal units....
On the other hand what they are missing both stock and doctrinal is a "cannon fodder" unit.


No this is not what I am suggesting. If you read the posts a bit more carefully you would see that the suggestion is that, instead of trying to balance Penals as an "elite specialized" unit it worth trying to give them a different role, that of a cannon fodder unit type. Reasons see above.

What make the osttruppen awesome is not just their low reinforcement cost, it's their insane cost efficiency in cover. The ostturppen have amazing long range dps for their cost and can trade effectively against allies troops. Even the british tommies have trouble winning long range engagement against the osttruppen.

In additional, the osttruppen enjoy the support of the best selection of support weapons in the game.

The conscript just bleed manpower because they are basically meatshield. The osttruppen are more fragile compared to conscript but can contribute to the fight without needing to perform suicidal charge. The osttruppen's long range dps allow the german to use them conservatively and defenisvely, while the conscript have to reenact the opening scene from enemies at the gate.

Why shouldn't the soviet get an effective non-doc elite infantry anyway? having two meatshield troops is not going to help the soviet. this new penal and new conscript are just going to be serving the same role unless the conscript get turn into guards.

...
Why shouldn't the soviet get an effective non-doc elite infantry anyway? having two meatshield troops is not going to help the soviet. this new penal and new conscript are just going to be serving the same role unless the conscript get turn into guards.

I am not saying that they should not but I am under the impression that soviets are designed to have mediocre stock units with gaps filled by doctrinal units...

Well if one designs Penals as cannon fodder one should provably adjust conscripts either increasing their far DPS or giving them some bonus when in cover so that that they are more cost efficient against axis infantry far.

The conscripts will become the troops that fight in cover from far and Penal will become the troops used to charge enemy and use their anti fortification/garrison kit...

I am not saying that they should not but I am under the impression that soviets are designed to have mediocre stock units with gaps filled by doctrinal units...

Well if one designs Penals as cannon fodder one should provably adjust conscripts either increasing their far DPS or giving them some bonus when in cover so that that they are more cost efficient against axis infantry far.

The conscripts will become the troops that fight in cover from far and Penal will become the troops used to charge enemy and use their anti fortification/garrison kit...

Cannon fodder isn't a design - what do you mean? Noone is going to run a unit at another unless its cost effective.

Soviets have -

Flamer engies
Ppsh cons
Shocks

All close range, how would a new unit fit in?

I am not saying that they should not but I am under the impression that soviets are designed to have mediocre stock units with gaps filled by doctrinal units...

Well if one designs Penals as cannon fodder one should provably adjust conscripts either increasing their far DPS or giving them some bonus when in cover so that that they are more cost efficient against axis infantry far.

The conscripts will become the troops that fight in cover from far and Penal will become the troops used to charge enemy and use their anti fortification/garrison kit...

The thing is, Conscripts are meant to be cannon fodders not Penals. They are meant to perform hard jobs, but they are not Osstruppen as they are mostly officers. Penal battalion =/= Penal companies. Their first implementation also reflected this, same cost as PG and DPS of G43 grens.

I'll remove the SVT and give them Guards Mosin profile. Give them 3 type of upgrades, PPSH with flamer, SVT or DPs. If that proves to be too much, just improve the SVT and give them either PPSH flamer or DPs as an upgrade.
Replace trip wire at vet1 with increased performance as they lose members.

so that you have clung to the name - penal and try to make them worse (osttrupen analogue), rename penal to the riflemen or the assault group and make them ranged unit