I don't know how Scope survive balance debate till today, but when in a capable hand, Scope can break the game too easily.
There are several things that can be used to compare, but all of those feel pale to mighty Scope.
- In USF version, there is forward observer. And you know what joke it is.
- SU85 can extend its view a bit, but run slow, and unable to spot surrounding. Same for 57mm atgun vet1.
- Valentine and Infrared halftrack can spot very small corner and require setup time, and cost quite large amount of mp and fuel to invest.
And then there is 30 munition Scope.
Equip with scout car and you can hack map legally.
Equip with Elefant and this tank destroyer can spot for itself.
ISU-152 self-spot was removed because it give this vehicle so much advantage, then what about Elefant scope, which can spot 360 degree around it?
My suggestion is: Allow only scout car (or in extended, halftrack) to use scope, and Scope work like Infrared halftrack or valentine.
Ostheer Scope
14 Dec 2015, 14:11 PM
#1
Posts: 378
14 Dec 2015, 14:28 PM
#2
Posts: 4928
Have a bad time with StuG's? 
I think it's fine, British Tanks get increased sight with Commanders and those are standard. I don't think it's as much, but it's non-doctrinal and stays active when moving.
I think it's fine, British Tanks get increased sight with Commanders and those are standard. I don't think it's as much, but it's non-doctrinal and stays active when moving.
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> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
14 Dec 2015, 14:39 PM
#3
Posts: 677
As many other abilities it should simply be capped to a max range.
222 with spotting become very powerful only with the veterancy bonuses...
Other than, since scope do not work while on the move their are fine.
222 with spotting become very powerful only with the veterancy bonuses...
Other than, since scope do not work while on the move their are fine.
14 Dec 2015, 14:46 PM
#4
4 
Posts: 113
Please leave the scopes alone.
14 Dec 2015, 15:01 PM
#5
Posts: 378
I think it's fine, British Tanks get increased sight with Commanders and those are standard. I don't think it's as much, but it's non-doctrinal and stays active when moving.
Actually, only cromwell, firefly and comet can upgrade commander, but in trade they can't upgrade mg gunner.
More over, commander only increase 10 sight, scope double the sight range, which is 35 to most vehicle.
If anyone think it is fine, then many more abilities need to be buffed to be the same (Forward Observation, return ISU152 selfspotting)
Otherwise, it's simply broken.
14 Dec 2015, 15:05 PM
#6
Posts: 232
I don't see any issue with the scopes.
For starters, the commanders with scopes are decent, but give up stuff like the tiger and, more importantly, vehicle smoke.
The added sight is also subject to terrain restrictions, which the valentine and IR halftrack aren't. I actually like that it gives the 222 a role in the late game.
The added sight also only works when stationary. From memory, it could make the Elefant a pain to use since it would try to rotate to a target, lose the sight and stop all the damned time. It was a nightmare before prioritize vehicles was introduced.
As for the ISU vs elefant - the ele is a dedicated tank destroyer, while the ISU at the time was obliterating inf and vehicles from range.
For starters, the commanders with scopes are decent, but give up stuff like the tiger and, more importantly, vehicle smoke.
The added sight is also subject to terrain restrictions, which the valentine and IR halftrack aren't. I actually like that it gives the 222 a role in the late game.
The added sight also only works when stationary. From memory, it could make the Elefant a pain to use since it would try to rotate to a target, lose the sight and stop all the damned time. It was a nightmare before prioritize vehicles was introduced.
As for the ISU vs elefant - the ele is a dedicated tank destroyer, while the ISU at the time was obliterating inf and vehicles from range.
14 Dec 2015, 15:18 PM
#7
Posts: 403
The issue with the scope is that it gives self spot for ele, which is something they specifically wanted to remove.
You are supposed to scout for your units. I wish jackson and jp4 had 80 vision range for 30 ammo
You are supposed to scout for your units. I wish jackson and jp4 had 80 vision range for 30 ammo
My place in the ladder is irrelevant as long as I am matched with opponents of the same rank and play all factions (balance at place 1000+ is no different from balance in top 100 if we consider what I said before the brakets) so I don't care about your assertion which is also irrelevant.
14 Dec 2015, 15:27 PM
#8
1 
Posts: 311
Don't touch the German optics. This feature is only on 2 commanders, and gives these commanders one particular ability that the other commanders doesn't have. Without this ability, the number of commanders which people actually use in the game, becames even smaller.
14 Dec 2015, 15:30 PM
#9
Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3
God forbid we have actually useful abilities on the dusted vanilla faction commanders.
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14 Dec 2015, 15:33 PM
#10
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
Scope is fine.
14 Dec 2015, 15:34 PM
#11
Posts: 609
Actually, only cromwell, firefly and comet can upgrade commander, but in trade they can't upgrade mg gunner.
More over, commander only increase 10 sight, scope double the sight range, which is 35 to most vehicle.
Yeah, but that also ignores the other rather powerful bonuses granted by the tank commander upgrade. The scope is LoS only and only when standing still. The Commander upgrade for tanks gives a bunch of other bonuses as well (will post them once I find them)
14 Dec 2015, 18:04 PM
#12
Posts: 2742
I see this thread turning into a team game v 1v1 debate.
I enjoy the spotting scope, especially on 222s. I think I've managed to get a 222 to vet 2 and upgrade it with spotting scope only on a few occasions. Even then I would eventually lose it to a katyusha barrage or a stray tank shell at some point. They're so fragile.
You've got to keep in mind, it only works when stationary. And even though Elefants could self spot, they would struggle when enemy units were moving with their tiny horizontal cone of fire. My experiences were always one of perpetual rotating-and-losing-sight-stopping-then-seeing-target-and-start-rotating-again when I was self spotting with Elefants. More often than not I would just try and spot with other units anyway. (You usually have to if you want to kill enemy units, not just push them back.)
I enjoy the spotting scope, especially on 222s. I think I've managed to get a 222 to vet 2 and upgrade it with spotting scope only on a few occasions. Even then I would eventually lose it to a katyusha barrage or a stray tank shell at some point. They're so fragile.
You've got to keep in mind, it only works when stationary. And even though Elefants could self spot, they would struggle when enemy units were moving with their tiny horizontal cone of fire. My experiences were always one of perpetual rotating-and-losing-sight-stopping-then-seeing-target-and-start-rotating-again when I was self spotting with Elefants. More often than not I would just try and spot with other units anyway. (You usually have to if you want to kill enemy units, not just push them back.)
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14 Dec 2015, 18:43 PM
#13
Posts: 4928
The issue with the scope is that it gives self spot for ele, which is something they specifically wanted to remove.
You are supposed to scout for your units. I wish jackson and jp4 had 80 vision range for 30 ammo
I already suggested the M10 and Jackson have default Spotting Scopes due to their role as glass cannons, but few people wanted that anyway. JP4 I'd just be happy if it had sight all the way around instead of being the only unit in the game that cannot see left, right, or back for some inexplicable reason.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
14 Dec 2015, 18:45 PM
#14
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...
If anyone think it is fine, then many more abilities need to be buffed to be the same (Forward Observation, return ISU152 selfspotting)
...
"Tracking" the non doctrinal ability available to a number of SU units including the ISU-152 provides the exact same bonus without requiring the units to be stationary.
Now if one adds the non doctrinal ability of T-70 and flares one will see that soviets have many spotting options of their own...
14 Dec 2015, 19:00 PM
#15
Posts: 823 | Subs: 3
God forbid we have actually useful abilities on the dusted vanilla faction commanders.
there are commanders for ostheer other than lightning war, osttruppen and close air support? DansGame
Me: I am scared, that i will need to shake ma head the same as when i read ur posts, so i rather not
Katitof: Its not even close to me even at my worst in the past, imagine ullu, incendiary, aaa, vetlolcake and disto merge into one mega axis zord with forcefield protecting it from accepting any factual data. Add to that a victim card(his rumblings at my PM).
Katitof: Its not even close to me even at my worst in the past, imagine ullu, incendiary, aaa, vetlolcake and disto merge into one mega axis zord with forcefield protecting it from accepting any factual data. Add to that a victim card(his rumblings at my PM).
14 Dec 2015, 19:05 PM
#16
Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2
Scopes allow me to play like I'm a pro player. Keep them plz.
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14 Dec 2015, 19:05 PM
#17
Posts: 1124
Yes it's a powerful ability, but no where near OP, I mean how often do you see people even use these tactics? Rarely. There is a reason why it's been untouched since launch...
14 Dec 2015, 19:22 PM
#18
Posts: 138
I think the scopes are fine it gives a lot of vision but every faction has this in one way or another.
soviets have the t70 recon mode, at vet2 it gets some significant scouting done.
British also have the command vehicle in doctrines which allows for free recon plane (still free right? haven't used it in awhile)
OKW has the IR Halftrack making the ISG even more powerfull
US has a number of ways like pathfinders or combine arms or the rifle observers, but I feel these don't provide has much sight when compared to the other factions.
soviets have the t70 recon mode, at vet2 it gets some significant scouting done.
British also have the command vehicle in doctrines which allows for free recon plane (still free right? haven't used it in awhile)
OKW has the IR Halftrack making the ISG even more powerfull
US has a number of ways like pathfinders or combine arms or the rifle observers, but I feel these don't provide has much sight when compared to the other factions.
14 Dec 2015, 19:48 PM
#19
Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1
OMG
pls OP, are you 4v4 Hero?
try scope in 1v1. You will see there are plenty of stuff you have to buy with muni and almost no vehicle.
playercard pls?
pls OP, are you 4v4 Hero?
try scope in 1v1. You will see there are plenty of stuff you have to buy with muni and almost no vehicle.
playercard pls?
14 Dec 2015, 19:54 PM
#20
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
JP4 I'd just be happy if it had sight all the way around instead of being the only unit in the game that cannot see left, right, or back for some inexplicable reason.
Cause IIRC it has 45 sight range by default.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
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And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
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