Can we have a minor buff to the WC51?
16 Nov 2015, 20:52 PM
#21
Posts: 1891
It's performance does not reflect price. Buff DPS, HP, and speed all by 15 to 25 percent.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
16 Nov 2015, 20:52 PM
#22
4 Posts: 444
Imo a 20 fuel 240 mp car should have a little more health. A pak shot almost 1 shots it, while it dies to small arms fire, even a single raketten cloaked almost kills it in one shot.
20 fuel and 240 mp guys, a pretty hefty investment imo, the 222 cost less.
20 fuel and 240 mp guys, a pretty hefty investment imo, the 222 cost less.
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16 Nov 2015, 21:52 PM
#23
1 
Posts: 1276
Brah, you can't account for a player's badness when designing a unit. Of course if you lose it it's bad. If you rush an AAHT and it hit's a teller mine it's also game ruining. That doesn't mean the AAHT needs a buff though.
Furthermore, "reducing cost increases early options". BRUHHHHH. First, bars and zooks early game? Are you ketten me? No one get's fast BARs (who techs bars to equip 1 squad early game) and zooks? Lel, that's the whole point of the WC51 - to counter the Kubel. You can still get nades, dude, it will just be delayed (as it should, since you have a garrisonable early vehicle). And again, you can refund the unit anyway, so one it comes out and does its damage and exhausts its usefulness, you refund it. If you are losing it, sorry, you're bad, no two ways around it, try Rifle company instead.
USF is strong anyway. It doesn't need the ability to field a WC51 and a M20 at the same time by reducing WC51 cost. Pick one or the other (or pick WC51, refit it, and get M20 anyway).
If you look at the grander scheme of things maybe you will see some other issues. Maybe the WC51 is thought of as being bad because it comes from a bad doctrine? Maybe it's bad because people are incapable of microing it correctly? Maybe it's bad because grenadiers are equipped with infinite range, target locking and movement seeking panzerfausts? In my opinion, the reason why it's not too good is because of the Panzerfaust from grenadiers. That doesn't mean the WC51 needs a buff though. It just makes it a niche unit. For example, consider it's usefulness against Kubel openings, Osttruppen openings, or MG42 spam openings. The WC51 could easily be used as a "free flank" tool against MG42 spammers, or be used to push Osttrupen out of cover in early game fights to nullify their buff.
Bruh the Prosttruppen come with panzerfausts as well. maybe just an increase in speed and acceleration may help
16 Nov 2015, 23:11 PM
#24
Posts: 515
Bruh the Prosttruppen come with panzerfausts as well. maybe just an increase in speed and acceleration may help
Only after building T1 (who goes ostruppen and t1 anyway)
16 Nov 2015, 23:13 PM
#25
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Imo a 20 fuel 240 mp car should have a little more health. A pak shot almost 1 shots it, while it dies to small arms fire, even a single raketten cloaked almost kills it in one shot.
20 fuel and 240 mp guys, a pretty hefty investment imo, the 222 cost less.
Its 20 fuel 280 mp.
@Nosliw
Every single player who knows what sniper does.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
16 Nov 2015, 23:13 PM
#26
Posts: 515
Imo a 20 fuel 240 mp car should have a little more health. A pak shot almost 1 shots it, while it dies to small arms fire, even a single raketten cloaked almost kills it in one shot.
20 fuel and 240 mp guys, a pretty hefty investment imo, the 222 cost less.
The 222 requires teching cost to T2, T2 building fuel cost, and then the cost of the 222. The 222 also is fielded much later due to tech times. The WC51 can be fielded at 0CP.
16 Nov 2015, 23:21 PM
#27
8 Posts: 2470
the WC51 has really shitty acceleration which fucks it over hard with the crappy pathing.
16 Nov 2015, 23:26 PM
#28
Posts: 515
Its 20 fuel 280 mp.
@Nosliw
Every single player who knows what sniper does.
Show me these top Ostheer players who are doing Osttruppen + T1 openings (before T2, ie, when the WC51 is in its prime) and I will gladly take back what I said
Edit: Even if they are, Osttruppen + T1 would be such a rare opening. As rare as WC51 openings probably. And even then, Osttruppen + Sniper opening would be NO harder to deal with than Grenadier + Sniper opening. So I fail to see the relevance.
17 Nov 2015, 00:22 AM
#29
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Show me these top Ostheer players who are doing Osttruppen + T1 openings (before T2, ie, when the WC51 is in its prime) and I will gladly take back what I said
Edit: Even if they are, Osttruppen + T1 would be such a rare opening. As rare as WC51 openings probably. And even then, Osttruppen + Sniper opening would be NO harder to deal with than Grenadier + Sniper opening. So I fail to see the relevance.
Should've watched OCF.
Go find some casts.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Nov 2015, 02:34 AM
#30
Posts: 515
Should've watched OCF.
Go find some casts.
I did, and I don't remember seeing Osttruppen in any games that mattered
17 Nov 2015, 03:01 AM
#31
Posts: 1891
I did, and I don't remember seeing Osttruppen in any games that mattered
The no true Scotsman fallacy is strong. First you said sniper +t1 games in general, then you said top tier games, and now your saying top tier games that mattered. Just accept the fact that Katitof beat you this time
The Fascisti Will Pay.
17 Nov 2015, 08:53 AM
#32
Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7
Show me these top Ostheer players who are doing Osttruppen + T1 openings (before T2, ie, when the WC51 is in its prime) and I will gladly take back what I said
Every top player that will see WC51 car and he is going ostruppens will retreat his pios build tier 1 and counter that car. Also many players go ostruppen + tier 1 - gues what ? sniper
17 Nov 2015, 12:17 PM
#33
Posts: 515
Kartitifiogfofof just brought up 1 build that doesn't even counter the WC51, it is just that it's a build that would "negate" the ability of the WC51 to push squads out of cover. No more effective than Grenadier T1 opening. The WC51s strengths and weaknesses remain the same against both builds.
The original arguement was just "Osttruppen have fausts as well" to which I said "only with T1" and he said good players build T1. So maybe they do but it doesn't change anything about the WC51, except that the second time you engage it it won't be able to push if you immediately tech T1. That's all.
The original arguement was just "Osttruppen have fausts as well" to which I said "only with T1" and he said good players build T1. So maybe they do but it doesn't change anything about the WC51, except that the second time you engage it it won't be able to push if you immediately tech T1. That's all.
17 Nov 2015, 13:03 PM
#34
Posts: 89
No.
Its fast as hell, its an opening that can wreak havok on OKW that went Kubbel, Rifles can shoot from it,it can self repair.
Also by the time 222s (although against Ostherr one should rarely make WC51) and ats hit the field you should already have withdrawn it.
Its fine as it is.
Its fast as hell, its an opening that can wreak havok on OKW that went Kubbel, Rifles can shoot from it,it can self repair.
Also by the time 222s (although against Ostherr one should rarely make WC51) and ats hit the field you should already have withdrawn it.
Its fine as it is.
Team game player.
All factions Player.
All factions Player.
17 Nov 2015, 13:27 PM
#35
4 Posts: 444
The 222 requires teching cost to T2, T2 building fuel cost, and then the cost of the 222. The 222 also is fielded much later due to tech times. The WC51 can be fielded at 0CP.
Yep, so just a small health buff would be good imo.
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17 Nov 2015, 13:32 PM
#36
4 Posts: 444
No.
Its fast as hell, its an opening that can wreak havok on OKW that went Kubbel, Rifles can shoot from it,it can self repair.
Also by the time 222s (although against Ostherr one should rarely make WC51) and ats hit the field you should already have withdrawn it.
Its fine as it is.[/quote
L2keep your forces togheter and not overextend. Also, pick up a raketten, OKW literally has the fastest counter to the wc51 compared to ostheer.
Hell did you know a kubel 1vs1 the wc51 if there's not a Squad in it? While it costs less and has supression to boot.
On another note, they should make it so medium and above tanks have a hard time hitting scout cars, imo irl it would've been hard to hit a small fast moving target. It'll give all scout cars a better chance of surviving late game. Except light tanks like Puma, t70 and the stuart of course.
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17 Nov 2015, 13:45 PM
#37
Posts: 89
Now ill have to make a raketeen and get an even weaker earlier game because of a WC51?
As if Volks alone were not weak enough...
As if Volks alone were not weak enough...
Team game player.
All factions Player.
All factions Player.
17 Nov 2015, 13:52 PM
#38
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Now ill have to make a raketeen and get an even weaker earlier game because of a WC51?
As if Volks alone were not weak enough...
Well, USF player makes himself weaker by getting WC51(much less shock value then M3 because of greater cost, delying important teching, removing 1 rifle squad you won't afford because of it and nothing like M3 flamers to actually exploit the advantage of WC51 garrison) instead of another rifle that will scale and be useful in late game as opposed to WC51, which most likely become scrap metal due to its bulky, slow cow nature.
Should you hinder yourself to counter a unit that just hindered your opponent? That is the question for you to answer.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Nov 2015, 14:23 PM
#39
4 Posts: 444
Now ill have to make a raketeen and get an even weaker earlier game because of a WC51?
As if Volks alone were not weak enough...
Yes, for reasons exactly how kati explained. Let me tell you the secret for countering the wc51. It's fuseliers, a wc51 can't get close and the fuss will just pick it off and force it to retreat. Just stick to green cover man, all it takes to nullify a wc51. The wc51 is a shock unit that has the smallest window of usefullness in the game.
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17 Nov 2015, 14:29 PM
#40
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
WC51 is lackluster in a lackluster commander, with limited utility and the rare possibility of being partially refunded. Unit needs a buff, reducing cost would just cause it to be spammed because of retrofit.
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