Ostheer (Wehrmacht) Grenadiers

I have tried to stream my games lately, and in this stream you can see in 44:30 (39:35) where my 2 Panthers can't do anything to the blob, and then when I try to pull them back, the blob destroys one of my Panthers which turns to an another direction when I try to drive them backwards. But the point is, that I they could not stop or even suppress the blob right in the beginning before I desided to pull them back. This has happened several times during this patch, and I think it is totally unrealistic that a blob of riflemen with bazookas could do that in that way.

You should remember that Ostheer panthers are quite bad at anti-infantry, people consider them tank destroyers. It's no wonder that riflemen equipped with handheld AT counter tank destroyers, and realism has nothing to do with it.

I have tried to stream my games lately, and in this stream you can see in 44:30 (39:35) where my 2 Panthers can't do anything to the blob, and then when I try to pull them back, the blob destroys one of my Panthers which turns to an another direction when I try to drive them backwards. But the point is, that I they could not stop or even suppress the blob right in the beginning before I desided to pull them back. This has happened several times during this patch, and I think it is totally unrealistic that a blob of riflemen with bazookas could do that in that way.

You can even break that rule by crushing infantry.

They weren't bad, they were better than rifle for a cheaper price + better and cheaper weapon upgrade. Now Rifles are balanced and above them at any stage of the game as they should be, Gren lovers are sad.

No they where not. the usf always had a stronger infantry then the ostheer. the problems for the usf was late game as m10 and m36 where pretty crappy when wfa came out.

also considering that the rifles at vet 3 have a received accuracy bonus thats the same as the volks pre nerf vet 5 shows how stupidly biased you are by proclaiming this is balanced.

No they where not. the usf always had a stronger infantry then the ostheer. the problems for the usf was late game as m10 and m36 where pretty crappy when wfa came out.

also considering that the rifles at vet 3 have a received accuracy bonus thats the same as the volks pre nerf vet 5 shows how stupidly biased you are by proclaiming this is balanced.

If you had bothered to ever play USF you would know that before Rifles were buffed they would bleed USF a shit tonne which meant you often couldn't afford to buy armour because of the MP drain and I would have considered them the weakest faction in 2v2 and up (especially when you consider all the other thing sthat have been fixed / buffed since then). Even when M36 and M10 was buffed rifles still caused massive bleed. So to quote you "shows how stupidly biased you are". Bars were also less useful since they have been buffed relatively recently.

the usf always had a stronger infantry then the ostheer.

This shows how stupidly biased you are by proclaiming this is balanced true.

No they where not. the usf always had a stronger infantry then the ostheer. the problems for the usf was late game...

USF had stronger infantry in the early game with the rifles being able to trade well vs ost at close and medium ranges but would be outclassed when the grens could afford their LMG and would bleed rifles heavily on the approach.

Indeed, USF late game was always a problem with axis armour being relatively superior being made of Krupp steel and not notebook paper as is the case with the USF. However, USF did have methods to keep their armour alive with their vehicle crews - it was a matter of not tunnel visioning and choosing to withdraw, repair and fight again, while most players with low ELO simply going YOLO and then crying cos they don't understand how to properly use USF armour.

If you had bothered to ever play USF you would know that before Rifles were buffed they would bleed USF a shit tonne which meant you often couldn't afford to buy armour because of the MP drain... Bars were also less useful since they have been buffed relatively recently.

Absolutely agree. The bleed was rather crazy because they dropped like flies in the late game (well, all stages of the game really), and had ramifications as the game progressed. BARs needed a buff to make them more useful and play a defined role for the 60 munitions investment, and it worked.

It's just this combination of very potent veterancy buffs and the blob up meta where you can a-move (hell not even A-move; it's just right click in the general direction cos they can fire much better on the move now with BARs buffed) and win most engagements and it's quite hard to deal with when the USF keeps snowballing.

You should remember that Ostheer panthers are quite bad at anti-infantry, people consider them tank destroyers. It's no wonder that riflemen equipped with handheld AT counter tank destroyers, and realism has nothing to do with it.

Yes, but then I have paid (2x)50 munitions and upgraded the 2 Panthers with MG-42s, that should matter. The 2 MG-42s on the Panthers should have a greater impact. They should pin down the infantry in the same way as the regular MG-42s do.

Yes, but then I have paid (2x)50 munitions and upgraded the 2 Panthers with MG-42s, that should matter. The 2 MG-42s on the Panthers should have a greater impact. They should pin down the infantry in the same way as the regular MG-42s do.

Would be broken as hell, it's a fast-moving well-armoured unit with good penetration on its main gun. Suppressing with an upgrade would make well-microed ones basically beat anything.

Well, really, pintle MG upgrades suppressing on pretty much any tank would be broken as hell. Most tanks would then require their players to be super dumb to ever get hit by infantry's engine-damaging AT abilities (or possibly even AT weapon upgrades), since all of them can get away from said infantry all right currently anyway if they see them coming, and so the tanks will be laughing at anything on foot that isn't an AT gun.

You can even break that rule by crushing infantry.

everyone is praising the panthers relative strong AI in the comet vs. panther thread

everyone is praising the panthers relative strong AI in the comet vs. panther thread

Yes, but maybe I am only complaining about that I have difficulties in killing USF riflemen with the Panthers and their MG-42s. Especially when the USF are blobbing and have bazookas.

If you had bothered to ever play USF you would know that before Rifles were buffed they would bleed USF a shit tonne which meant you often couldn't afford to buy armour because of the MP drain and I would have considered them the weakest faction in 2v2 and up (especially when you consider all the other thing sthat have been fixed / buffed since then). Even when M36 and M10 was buffed rifles still caused massive bleed. So to quote you "shows how stupidly biased you are". Bars were also less useful since they have been buffed relatively recently.

Bullsheep. The differences between usf and ostheer infantry hasn't changed much (especially not in 1vs1 and 2vs2 where vet 3 units are far less common) safe for vet 3. if you where bleeding mp then you are bleeding mp now.

The real problem back then was the usf and ostheer lategame the ostheer used the callin meta and dealing with 2 tigers with pak support was nearly impossible to counter. and guess what? rifleman being shot at by tigers will indeed bleed a lot of mp . and since the pak howie was really overpriced and bad back then the ostheer player could easily turtle.

For the okw it was the obers luch combo that caused havoc on them. with the captain route being utter shit the luchs could easily push the usf back into the base.

Bars by the way where buffed midway wfa ( i believe is sept 2014) so that makes your argument that bars got only recently buffed false and furthermore rifle flame throwers and lmg's got nerfed.

it was never the rifles that where the problem.

Bullsheep. The differences between usf and ostheer infantry hasn't changed much (especially not in 1vs1 and 2vs2 where vet 3 units are far less common) safe for vet 3. if you where bleeding mp then you are bleeding mp now.

The real problem back then was the usf and ostheer lategame the ostheer used the callin meta and dealing with 2 tigers with pak support was nearly impossible to counter. and guess what? rifleman being shot at by tigers will indeed bleed a lot of mp . and since the pak howie was really overpriced and bad back then the ostheer player could easily turtle.

For the okw it was the obers luch combo that caused havoc on them. with the captain route being utter shit the luchs could easily push the usf back into the base.

Bars by the way where buffed midway wfa ( i believe is sept 2014) so that makes your argument that bars got only recently buffed false and furthermore rifle flame throwers and lmg's got nerfed.

it was never the rifles that where the problem.

i find vet pretty easy to obtain ( for all factions except okw), maybe to easy and too fast tbh, i rarely think "oh nice i got a vet 3 gren/riflemen/IS, time to babysit my precious vet 3 unit so it can wreck havoc"

it was never the rifles that where the problem.

Oh so you would have prefer a nerf on gren? Because Gren were by far superior than rifle at the moment they equip their LMG.

Today grenadiers, a 240mp unit with a 60amo upgrade and pfaust, are fine and balance if you consider using them in addition of HMG42, mortar and sniper T1, 222, pak and pzgrenardier T2, and whatever you want from T3 or T4.
If you don't, switch and play USF.

Because Sturms have the fastest repair rate ingame, can upgrade to minesweepers, drop medical supplies, plant nondoctrinal mines, lay barbed wire? And because the nature of Sturms weapons make them effective vs squishy long range troops like Cons, and better for killing support weapons?

sturm base repair rate was lowered to 1.6 some time ago. While the minesweeper raise it to 2.6 it's still lower than what it was previously.

Oh so you would have prefer a nerf on gren? Because Gren were by far superior than rifle at the moment they equip their LMG.

the problem have always been the lmg42. They are still one of the best upgrade 60 munition can buy. It's far superior to the bar, tommies bren, or the non existence dreams of the conscript.

The only reason why rifleman had problem keeping up with the grenadier is the weakness of the bar. You needed two bar to get anywhere effective and 60 mu for each is just too much to ask for.

Oh so you would have prefer a nerf on gren? Because Gren were by far superior than rifle at the moment they equip their LMG.

No i want you to play this game. lmg's are for long range combat and between short and midrange rifles still have the advantage. and if a map favours long range combat the usf trumps them again with para's and rifles able to equip 2 lmg's on a squad instead of 1. and yes its doctrinal dont remind me.

Also dont forget smoke.

Mid-short range infantry that costs more wins vs long range infantry at mid range and 240mp+60mun inf loses to 280mp +120-140mun and you see it as a problem how and why again?

Ost have best HMG in game in T0 for a reason you know.

Oh, and that smoke does not root your HMG in place, before suppression wears off so they can advance, you can be repositioned and ready.

We had Cons and Grens, most basic infantry, quite well balanced.

Then we recevied vet 5 Volks with enormour rec. acc and immortal Obers.

Then Cons and Rifles recevied rec.acc buff.

Ten vet 3 tommies with double bren with cover bonys.

Now Grens are left behind. Solution? Buff rec. acc.

With such approach we will face vet 3 elite squads with 0.2 rec. acc while basic infantry will have 0.5

The question is simple. Do vetted units use cover more effectively? Sure.
Do they dodge bullets when staind on the open field? Not a chance.

That's why I'd love to see 1 rec. acc for everyone with great bonuses only behind cover.
That would solve OP/UP rec. acc on most units and force to play with cover since Rifles blobs of doom would bleed like hell.

With current approach we can except Grens buff, then Volks buff and then again cry for Cons buff.
Point is, rec. acc is killing the game. With low (lower better) rec. acc you can blob through open field like no tomorrow, but try to apply rec.acc bonuses only behind cover and guess what, no one will blob like that casue it will lead to huge bleed and losing a game against opponent using cover.

Mid-short range infantry that costs more wins vs long range infantry at mid range and 240mp+60mun inf loses to 280mp +120-140mun and you see it as a problem how and why again?

I didnt say it was a problem and you are epically failing and derailing the thread

I didnt say it was a problem and you are epically failing and derailing the thread

You think so?

Why not have the option for grenadiers to upgrade to 5 infantry like Brits? Currently a grenadier vs a rifleman is just no contest.

Thanks

Because I believe that relation is exactly why this thread exists in the first place.

Some dude tries to grenspam vs USF, fails, goes to forums to qq, axis trio infernale jumps in to support him and the thread boils down to expensive inf with expensive upgrades beating cheap inf with cheap unpgrade, because scrubs around don't know what sniper is or how to use hmg42 in conjunction with other hmg42s and grens.

Some dude tries to grenspam vs USF, fails, goes to forums to qq, axis trio infernale jumps in to support him and the thread boils down to expensive inf with expensive upgrades beating cheap inf with cheap unpgrade, because scrubs around don't know what sniper is or how to use hmg42 in conjunction with other hmg42s and grens.

vs usf the best thing you can do is never build grens... If you're fighting the faction with the best mainline infantry,and youre building mainline infantry to counter...No shit riflemen will stomp you.. just substitute with CHEAP AND SCALING Ostruppen,either mobile defense or the ostruppen doc, but even then not too many ostruppen,just 1 or 2. Just to have a Faust-Web for the light vehicles to protect ur sniper.

2 ostruppen and an MG + Pio will trade stupidly well with 2 riflemen and an RE for example.

get 2 MGs
and a sniper...
in no particular order. These are your cheat codes.

and then just focus on killing or deterring the light vehicle,whether its LT tier or captain tier, you should be able to put down 2 tellers since ur not buying LMGs and you dont NEED a med bunker,then have a field day,because cheap infantry supported by support weapons AND a sniper is straight up cheating vs USF.

Add in those 'shit' panzergrenadiers to support, maybe a 251,and usf player will be ripping their hair out at the impenetrability of your lines...unless theyre really fucken good. Or theyre just better than you.

The ONLY counterplay to that is lucky pack howie hits or a light vehicle seeping through and getting the sniper. Or just being bad/playing bad and not knowing how to use MGs and snipers.
Or playing on a map where snipers dont really have alot of clear shots.

Otherwise its pure cheats.

Brits its the same thing,no point in investing too heavily in grens when you know sections are really good/more potential to be better. So OSTRUPPEN. And countersnipe the brit one when he comes to counter you!

Vs soviets, grens are still grens. Raping conscripts, dueling with guards, and tackling shocks with MG support since 2013.
Ive fought a fair share of "4x Grens into Rifleman OP" opening type players.

Seriously, NO SHIT. You have no supression,no sniper,(which is blatantly ignoring all the strong units ostheer starts with)and your infantry is out gunned. OF COURSE youre gonna lose the line to riflemen.


And no I dont see any problemo with certain units being "not-sogood" vs certain factions. At all. Because otherwise Ostheer would roflstomp everyone if Grens could beat Sections and rifles 1v1,in addition to having the best support in the fucking game.