USF commanders

Right now, it seems like Armor, Rifle, and Infantry company are the most used. They have unique and generally useful abilities. Airborne is still used every now and then, although the increase in tech cost, and cost decrease of the captain have done a lot to decrease it's utility.

Mechanized and Airborne are incredibly rarely used, at least in my experience. I want to use this thread to think of improvements to recon commander.

Second to maybe mechanized, Recon support is the most useless USF commander. I want to discuss this, and about ways we can make this doctrine more viable.

Right now, these are the doctrines ability:

0 CP - increased rifleman sight in cover
2 CP - I&R pathfinders
3 CP - M8 Greyhound
4 CP - Recon run
7 CP - 900mp drop of 2 airborne squads with random weapons and a AT gun

Current problems:
- I&R pathfinders are powerful in that they hit early, but have very little utility other than dropping 125 muni artillery drops.
- They greyhound is not very powerful, and comes late. It hits around the same time as a stuart, and yet the stuart is infinitely more useful. Although the standard gun of the greyhound isn't bad, the nerf on the canister shot has done a lot of damage. It doesn't provide the shock value that the AA halftrack does, and it doesn't have the scalability that the m20 or the stuart have. It's just not worthwhile.
- The major has a recon run as a special ability already. I think that having another at 4CP is just pointless.,
- A 900MP lategame drop is very problematic. Floating that much manpower, in most games, could cost someone the game. Further,

Potential solutions:
-I wish the sight ability had some mobile application. I think this is an alright ability, but abilities like rifleman flare are much better.
- Move the M8 greyhound to 2 CPs. Provide some way to allow it to scale better or to have more shock value. Maybe allow it to radios to provide recon (similar to coh1) for a moderate munitions or mp cost? Or maybe switch it's role to be a light AT vehicle like the AEC or puma?
-I&R pathfinders I think should function as a regular pathfnder squad, with the ability crit squads below a certain health level, with the additional ability to call in artillery. They need more utility in general.
-The airdrop needs a major overhaul. Personally, I think that airborne with bazookas is a massive waste of elite infantry, on a weak piece of anti-tank. I think that this ability should be pushed to 8 CPs, be 550 manpower elite AT drop. It should drop a Airborne squad with the ability to upgrade Recoiless rifles for 120 munitions, as well as an uncrewed AT gun. This would make this ability have late game utility, while still distinguishing it from airborne commander airborne troops.
- I'd like to replace the recon run with something like increased sight from tanks or something.

Yes recoilles rifles please!

- Move the M8 greyhound to 2 CPs. Provide some way to allow it to scale better or to have more shock value. Maybe allow it to radios to provide recon (similar to coh1) for a moderate munitions or mp cost? Or maybe switch it's role to be a light AT vehicle like the AEC or puma?

-I&R pathfinders I think should function as a regular pathfnder squad, with the ability crit squads below a certain health level, with the additional ability to call in artillery. They need more utility in general.

-The airdrop needs a major overhaul. Personally, I think that airborne with bazookas is a massive waste of elite infantry, on a weak piece of anti-tank. I think that this ability should be pushed to 8 CPs, be 550 manpower elite AT drop. It should drop a Airborne squad with the ability to upgrade Recoiless rifles for 120 munitions, as well as an uncrewed AT gun. This would make this ability have late game utility, while still distinguishing it from airborne commander airborne troops.

- I'd like to replace the recon run with something like increased sight from tanks or something.

• Give the M8 the T-70's gun and remove Canister Shot.
  
  
• Give Pathfinders and IR Pathfinders M1 Garands with better long range DPS, maybe decrease received accuracy.
  
  
• Recoilless Rifles were basically direct-fire Pack Howitzers, and that level of Infnatry firepower has no place in CoH2 imo. Just drop one squad with Thompsons and one with Bazookas, and drop the AT Gun with a Crew attached.
  
  
• Just make it function like the Ostheer / Soviet Recon Overflight.

I would be so happy if they added the M18 to the game and somehow balanced it. For those of you who are curious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M18_recoilless_rifle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ajMeiM3IHA

Fun fact, Airdropped Combat Group Paratroopers that come with Thompsons can still be given weapon racks.

I would be so happy if they added the M18 to the game and somehow balanced it. For those of you who are curious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M18_recoilless_rifle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ajMeiM3IHA

But how do you balance what is essentially a Bazooka shooting Light Howitzer rounds?

make IR pathfinders gain vet from their arty, right now it's impossible to get them to vet 3 so they can actually sneak around. Change the awful last ability to something that is actually decent. Brits drop an at gun and hmg for just ammo, why is this 900 mp?

I think with regard to the greyhound in addition to buffing the unit, it should be unlocked from 0 cps after building either the Lieutenant or captain. This way it is not coming out later than literally every other light vehicle. I just don'ta think the CP system works well for light vehicles

I agree with your suggestion on I&R pathfinders, if they could fight they would be worth it.

I think your paratrooper drop would be good, but i would suggest changing it to be like the Off map combat group. I think it should be super cost effective. right now you hardly get any discount on the units but you must anti up a massive amount of manpower to do so, waiting that long and getting random weapons should yield a greater return in the form of bonus units. It literally costs more than a tiger ace for a signifigantly lower payoff.

With respect to the airborne commander i think it would be more viable with some small changes

1.Pathfinders are buffed(they are far behind JLI for 10 less manpower)

2.The AT gun and MG cost munitions to drop in exchange for a reduced manpower cost. This can be like the new british commander. (don't have it myself but the premium one w/o a croc). It would be a fair tradeoff since it would trade late game p47s for a greater mid game presence.

Right now Airbourne has 4 manpower based call ins so you will have trouble getting the most out of the commander, getting more cost efficient infantry from pathfinders and greater field presence from support weapons might make the commander more appealing but hopefully not too overpowering.

Mechanized is going to live or die with how good the jeep and Halftrack assault group are. Would love to be able to equip it for the artillery though

Regarding Recon company:

-Fix the Rifles vision ability.

-Make those Pathfinder equal to the ones on Airborne, just been 3 man with 2 "crit" rifles.

-Make the Greyhound come with skirts by default. Improve a bit the main gun. Isn't it 3CP although ?

-Regarding the 900mp drop.
>>>"Double paratroopers comming with weapons" and you remove the AT gun
>>>Make it drop a Paratroopers with bolster zooks, thompson and empty AT gun.

2.The AT gun and MG cost munitions to drop in exchange for a reduced manpower cost. This can be like the new british commander. (don't have it myself but the premium one w/o a croc). It would be a fair tradeoff since it would trade late game p47s for a greater mid game presence.

I can get behind this.

Potential solutions:
-I wish the sight ability had some mobile application. I think this is an alright ability, but abilities like rifleman flare are much better.

Forward Observers demand being garrisoned or in cover, which means this is a defensive based unlock. Riflemen Flares however are much more flexible since you can fire it ahead of an advance or fire it to see where the enemy is attacking you.
If I were to change this, the ability should be on all infantry, and at least for Riflemen, it is on whenever they are not moving, kind of like Ostheer's Spotting Scopes.

- Move the M8 greyhound to 2 CPs. Provide some way to allow it to scale better or to have more shock value. Maybe allow it to radios to provide recon (similar to coh1) for a moderate munitions or mp cost? Or maybe switch it's role to be a light AT vehicle like the AEC or puma?

Depending on how this unit's role ought to be, the CP could either be reduced, or if kept allow the M8 to have greater roles. The biggest reason to go M8 is pretty much Canister Shot, but its a gamble due to low armour and lack of AT. I don't own this commander, so I can only guess the crew doesn't spawn with bazookas like the M20's, maybe it should?
Another idea is that it's an upgrade from regular M20s, but this causes a problem in that it's locked behind the less useful of tech tier options, and no ones going to go LT just for M8, even if it's a regular unit training queue rather than an upgrade.

-I&R pathfinders I think should function as a regular pathfinder squad, with the ability crit squads below a certain health level, with the additional ability to call in artillery. They need more utility in general.

I&R Pathfinders are clearly there for the last unlock, so if the latter is revamped or removed I don't think there's any point in this unit at all. The arty ability is nice, but it can certainly be done elsewhere, like giving it to the officer squads to encourage using them in a assault support manner. I didn't even know I&Rs don't perform sniper roles, that's one less reason to bother using them.

-The airdrop needs a major overhaul. Personally, I think that airborne with bazookas is a massive waste of elite infantry, on a weak piece of anti-tank. I think that this ability should be pushed to 8 CPs, be 550 manpower elite AT drop. It should drop a Airborne squad with the ability to upgrade Recoiless rifles for 120 munitions, as well as an uncrewed AT gun. This would make this ability have late game utility, while still distinguishing it from airborne commander airborne troops.

I actually think it should just drop with bazookas, and the CP and manpower cost reduced accordingly. That, or copy CoH1's AT gun drop where it drops a crewed AT gun, and can reinforce near beacons, and given superior stats can rely on warding off infantry attacks for a while, with the obvious drawback of manpower bleed. I'm guessing you envision recoilless rifles as being better versions of bazookas without replacing bazookas, I find that unnecessary bloating the game by adding useful stuff but no getting rid of the useless.
If you REALLY want recoilless rifle unit, then maybe it should instead act like a heavy weapons team and works like the Rak43; small, fast, can be garrisoned into house, camouflaged, and when killed leaves the M18 weapon lying around to be recrewed or salvaged/ destroyed. This can be done either by a lone squad drop, or dropped like HMG/ AT gun, uncrewed. Would need to have CP reduced though, and by that point we're looking at a commander with lots of early game unlocks.

But how do you balance what is essentially a Bazooka shooting Light Howitzer rounds?

I am assuming considering their complaint of "Zookas are bad so why would you want them on expensive Paras", their image of the Recoiless Rifle would be like CoH1's version as the 2nd best infantry AT weapon in the game.

I am assuming considering their complaint of "Zookas are bad so why would you want them on expensive Paras", their image of the Recoiless Rifle would be like CoH1's version as the 2nd best infantry AT weapon in the game.

But that's not what a Recoilless Rifle does, CoH1's RR's were a work of fiction. Actual Recoilless Rifles fired modified artillery shells, and were used against infantry, unarmored vehicles, and field fortifications. Essentially it's direct-fire pocket artillery, something that unless employed as it's own unit (With setup like MG 42), would probably either be UP, RNG, or OP. Consider this, people hate Rifle Grenades, but a Recoilless Rifle is basically shooting Rifle Grenades at the rate of a Panzerschreck.

While Recoilless Rifles did have HEAT rounds, they were very underwhelming, vastly inferior to the Bazooka, and Anti-Tank wasn't the purpose of the RR. Having an RR with HEAT rounds solely as a better Bazooka is like calling in a StuG E with HEAT rounds to act as a better StuG G.

But that's not what a Recoilless Rifle does, CoH1's RR's were a work of fiction. Actual Recoilless Rifles fired modified artillery shells, and were used against infantry, unarmored vehicles, and field fortifications. Essentially it's direct-fire pocket artillery, something that unless employed as it's own unit (With setup like MG 42), would probably either be UP, RNG, or OP. Consider this, people hate Rifle Grenades, but a Recoilless Rifle is basically shooting Rifle Grenades at the rate of a Panzerschreck.

While Recoilless Rifles did have HEAT rounds, they were very underwhelming, vastly inferior to the Bazooka, and Anti-Tank wasn't the purpose of the RR. Having an RR with HEAT rounds solely as a better Bazooka is like calling in a StuG E with HEAT rounds to act as a better StuG G.

Sounds like it would make a real cool doctrinal support weapon unit though.

Having para's drop with bazookas isn't a plus, nor is having to bank 900 mp. I like the idea of having them drop with weapons, but would like the choices to be smg's, 1919's, or 2x scoped 30-06's which give them vision like panzerfusiliers.

The vision bug would be nice to have fixed.

Also, cannister was overnerfed to complete worthlessness. Either replace it or make it usable. Give the scout car a little better vision. It currently is no better than a standard 222 or Kubel.

Lastly, the range on pathfinder arty was shortened so that they have to walk into the range of units like the Panzer Schwerer HQ in order to drop arty.

Sounds like it would make a real cool doctrinal support weapon unit though.

That'd be cool as a direct-fire Pack Howitzer with MG mobility and such.

Also, cannister was overnerfed to complete worthlessness. Either replace it or make it usable. Give the scout car a little better vision. It currently is no better than a standard 222 or Kubel.

I said it before I'll say it again, remove Canister Shot and give it the stats from the T-70 45mm gun.

When reworking the AB combat group, and it does need reworking, I urge you to examine the MP context that a USF player will be working with.

Having para's drop with bazookas isn't a plus, nor is having to bank 900 mp. I like the idea of having them drop with weapons, but would like the choices to be smg's, 1919's, or 2x scoped 30-06's which give them vision like panzerfusiliers.

The vision bug would be nice to have fixed.

Also, cannister was overnerfed to complete worthlessness. Either replace it or make it usable. Give the scout car a little better vision. It currently is no better than a standard 222 or Kubel.

Lastly, the range on pathfinder arty was shortened so that they have to walk into the range of units like the Panzer Schwerer HQ in order to drop arty.

I haven't seen it in awhile but I still have nightmares about the pre-nerf days when it would 1 shot my full health grenadier squads in cover both heavy and light. The unit needs to be made more viable but please never go back to the days when it wiped full health squads that were in cover.

But that's not what a Recoilless Rifle does, CoH1's RR's were a work of fiction. Actual Recoilless Rifles fired modified artillery shells, and were used against infantry, unarmored vehicles, and field fortifications. Essentially it's direct-fire pocket artillery, something that unless employed as it's own unit (With setup like MG 42), would probably either be UP, RNG, or OP. Consider this, people hate Rifle Grenades, but a Recoilless Rifle is basically shooting Rifle Grenades at the rate of a Panzerschreck.

While Recoilless Rifles did have HEAT rounds, they were very underwhelming, vastly inferior to the Bazooka, and Anti-Tank wasn't the purpose of the RR. Having an RR with HEAT rounds solely as a better Bazooka is like calling in a StuG E with HEAT rounds to act as a better StuG G.

I think the concept of an anti-infantry zook could be balanced if it cost enough munis. Stuff like croc, t70, bofors, etc already do a number on infantry. If it was doctrinal, took maybe 120 munis, and 2 models out of a squad it could be balanced.

I tested it and the Greyhound loses to a 222 head on, most of the time. Greyhound has a shit gun, shit armor, and extremely overpriced.

Buff it's main gun, armor, and make it worth its price and CP timing.

Keep in mind the High-Altitude Recon on this commander and Mechanized cannot be shot down: REPEAT, cannot be shot down.