JagdTiger and Elephant need counters

I LOVE the idea. This isn't a big nerf to the Elefants or Jagdtigers, it just opens up more counters to these tanks via non-tank units like infantry or artillery just in terms of PENETRATION. As in... the whole concept of a unit resisting shot after shot of AT gun fire and Bazooka fire is just a stupid concept and is asking for King of the Hill tanks like Jagdtiger and Elefant to rule the game.

Its like the pre-patch King Tiger that was impossible to penetrate with ZiS or 57mm. That was the only issue.. the penetration. You need effective ways to stop a certain unit otherwise its just not fun fighting against it.

Brilliant idea.

I LOVE the idea. This isn't a big nerf at all to the Elefants or Jagdtigers, it just opens up more counters to these tanks via non-tank units like infantry or artillery.

Brilliant idea.

+50% pen from AT guns would be the kiss of death for the Elefant and Jadgtiger. The Elefant because it's only got 10 more range and can't self sight without spotting scopes anymore and the Jadgtiger because stunlocking it isn't hard.

Like both these tanks are niche units, can we please not further relegate them to the "never seen outside of 3v3 and 4v4" camp please.

This is his you'complain' about something. Good job Omega, I wish all threads looked like this.

Well that's great for the brits, but what about USf and soviets, seems like from all these if they don't choose a doctrine with mark target or P-47s they are screwed. And since when is a faction needing a certain doctrine to counter a unit been okay from a balance standpoint.

The King Tiger is expensive too. But there is clear nondoctrinal counters in each faction with TDs that can kite it. None of the thing you guys have mentioned seem to fit that.

Their range has been nerfed,for elefant,its just 10m more range than Zis 3,actually you dont need a certain doctrine to counter the elefant. Besides,It can't do anything against infantry.Use your infantry with AT gun followed,it's not hard to force the elefant to move,and when moving,the elefant can't fire. Also due to its low rotation speed,its easy to flank it.

And for JT,it has so many weakness,the slowest speed and rotation,always stun,so expensive,poor sight,I can't find any advantage it has more than a JP 4.For me,Never use it again,JP 4 is too much better to use.

+50% pen from AT guns would be the kiss of death for the Elefant and Jadgtiger. The Elefant because it's only got 10 more range and can't self sight without spotting scopes anymore and the Jadgtiger because stunlocking it isn't hard.

Like both these tanks are niche units, can we please not further relegate them to the "never seen outside of 3v3 and 4v4" camp please.

Shouldn't AT guns be the kiss of death for all tanks?

Shouldn't AT guns be the kiss of death for all tanks?

270-290-320 MP totally negating a massive fuel investment effortlessly is kinda uh not okay. I mean the Jadgtiger has a stun mechanic already to make it weak to infantry AT (well all AT in general but you get my point) and the Elefant can't self sight anymore.

Both the Elefant and Jadgtiger are rare as fuck in 1v1 and 2v2 so why exactly do we need to make them more rare. Both are necessary to deal with Churchill waves, and they are not effective on every map (Urban ones).

BTW, dont mess with penetration. They have armor for purpose.
B4 was very good counter but not any more.
Change B4 to slower shooting pak43 with vet ability to shoot like arty and no more problem for SU at least.

Change B4 to slower shooting pak43 with vet ability to shoot like arty and no more problem for SU at least.

203mm Heavy Artillery = Anti-Tank Gun? That's some very strange logic.

I think it'd make more sense if it acted like on-map Railroad Artillery. I'd compare it to the 240mm Howitzer Barrage, but those are just RNG Bombs

The churchill costs only 155fuel and will hit the field much earlier than 14CP elefant or 15CP JT. If nerfing elefant and JT again ,then you will see the Brits will rule the 4V4 games forever. You said its needed to get a certain doctrine to counter sth.Yeah after the brits faction introduction,Axis team game players will always choose elefant to counter the brits non-doctrinal heavies.

There are already so many nerfs to the ele/JT, range nerf, can't through objects,CP nerf,number limit,now self-recon nerf, for elefant ,its just 10 more range than medium TD,but much more weakness.Just don't nerf it anymore.Now no players use the JT,then the elefant will be the same...

It is completely counter intuitive and frankly bad design that heavy Tank Destroyers can not be countered. Not to mistake uncounterable with unbeatable. But you certainly can't kill them with Bazookas/PTRS and AT Guns because they simply don't have enough penetration. The only way to kill Heavy Tank Destroyers is by swarming with medium tanks, units that the Tank Destroyers are also capable of completely wrecking. Whilst it's certainly possible it's just bad for gameplay because it creates a situation that's far too all-in. Killing unsupported heavies is easy, but realistically there's always going to be Pak Walls, Shrek Blobs and even mines. If you throw away the 2-4 Mediums but the JT/Ele barely gets away then the game is basically over. And the only way of actually killing supported TD's is ccommiting to a really deep push that will most likely result in losing half of your mediums.

It also means there's little unit variation and strategy, you are just spamming mediums every single game as Allies. If the Pen on Bazookas and PTRS was buffed it would create a lot more of a reactionary counter system and make the game more active. With Infantry based AT getting buffed, it would incentivize Close Quarters Infantry to counter them which are also pretty worthless in the current meta.

For Comparison Allied tank Destroyers can be properly countered with Panzer Shreks.

203mm Heavy Artillery = Anti-Tank Gun? That's some very strange logic.

I think it'd make more sense if it acted like on-map Railroad Artillery. I'd compare it to the 240mm Howitzer Barrage, but those are just RNG Bombs

B4 was used for direct hits so I dont see any problem.
Still, gameplay > reality.
We dont have Panthers breaking whole the time, but maybe we should?

It's more about the map then these units imo.

Maps like rails and einhoven are insta win for these units, but still, they can be dealt with.

Try to keep all your tanks alive, then notice how you got 3-4 while he's only got 1 ele.
Sure if you lose a tank early on it might be tough, but try to see that ele/JT have literally zero AI, i've won games were i just gave up on spamming tanks and just went mass infantry vs those heavy tanks.

Scouting is so important as well.

More about maps imo.

Considering the massive buffs to Allied late game that have already happened I don't really think we need to twist the knife harder for Axis right now.

That massive vet3 rifle bonus which is irrelevant vs armor, that massive 105-135 penetration buff! Now heavies and super heavies need to live in fear from imba sherman! That overpowering 80 hp buff for EZ8!

All the UKF buffs with reduced hp, effectiveness and scatter for their late game units!

That massive soviet late game buff by taking away focus vision from ISU and even less relevant con survivability buff!

Ohh yea, massive late game buffs to allies, peace agreements in Syria and medium hawaian pizza for everyone!

Do you also believe in fairies?

B4 was used for direct hits so I dont see any problem.
Still, gameplay > reality.
We dont have Panthers breaking whole the time, but maybe we should?

There's a difference between leaving out the flaws of a unit for gameplay reasons, and completely changing the role it was used in. We don't have Panthers firing HE shells at Infantry and Buildings, so why would an Artillery Piece be shooting AP at Tanks?

Also the B-4 was used for direct hits against entrenched positions, but I haven't found any sources that it was used against Tanks.


Also I see Katitof went full-fanboy up there

It's more about the map then these units imo.

Maps like rails and einhoven are insta win for these units, but still, they can be dealt with.

Try to keep all your tanks alive, then notice how you got 3-4 while he's only got 1 ele.
Sure if you lose a tank early on it might be tough, but try to see that ele/JT have literally zero AI, i've won games were i just gave up on spamming tanks and just went mass infantry vs those heavy tanks.

Scouting is so important as well.

More about maps imo.

+1

both got nerfed several times. The last change was the focused sight removed. And those tanks are very map dependent, as looney said.
And a 100% penetration gurantee for JT/Elefant? come on

There's a difference between leaving out the flaws of a unit for gameplay reasons, and completely changing the role it was used in. We don't have Panthers firing HE shells at Infantry and Buildings, so why would an Artillery Piece be shooting AP at Tanks?

Also the B-4 was used for direct hits against entrenched positions, but I haven't found any sources that it was used against Tanks.

Its just solution to make it useful cause in current state its useless.
We already have vet ability to shoot directly so just swap it with "barrage"

Tulips+mark target

Well that's great for the brits, but what about USf and soviets, seems like from all these if they don't choose a doctrine with mark target or P-47s they are screwed. And since when is a faction needing a certain doctrine to counter a unit been okay from a balance standpoint.

The King Tiger is expensive too. But there is clear nondoctrinal counters in each faction with TDs that can kite it. None of the thing you guys have mentioned seem to fit that.

Doctrine to counter doctrine is OK isn't it? And IMO Elefant is gonna perform well only with the commander which has Spotting Scope. And like other said, it's expensive, comes late, etc etc.

I'm talking about 2s though. In 3s and 4s I have no idea.

Doctrine to counter doctrine is OK isn't it?

Actually, it isn't.

What you do if you don't have that specific counter doctrine?

No unit should require doctrine to counter it, doctrine might make it easier, but it shouldn't be requirement.

Actually, it isn't.

What you do if you don't have that specific counter doctrine?

No unit should require doctrine to counter it, doctrine might make it easier, but it shouldn't be requirement.

It's possible to counter Elef and JT in 1s ( ) and 2s. Doctrines act as bonuses.