JagdTiger and Elephant need counters
Posts: 2561
With the JagTigers recent price change and the fact that we will be seeing more of them, I believe it's time to talk about it and it's little brother the Elephant. Notably it's general lack of any true counters.
Given these unit's huge armor, health, and range they are a extremely hard unit to take out. While they have a big price and rightfully dominate armor vs armor battles this leaves them extremely resistent to just about everything in the game. Leaving the only true way to combat them to completely overwhelm them with the very unit they are strong against.
Fighting them often requires the enemy player having a lack of support and if even moderately supported can be a impossible feat to actually damage in any way. And while in 1v1 a player can choose to fight elsewhere or exploit the lack of support it's cost might take, this situation becomes less and less likely in 2v2+ settings where allies can easily support them and their usage is more numerous.
Solution
All I would like is for some counterplay to be introduced so that players can effectively fight back and damage the super heavy TDs when completely routing it's support or overwhelming it with large numbers of tanks isn't possible. Which may look something like this:
Bazookas/PTRS/Piats +100% Penetration vs Elephant and JagdTiger
Zis-3/57mm/6-pounder +50% Penetration vs Elephant and JagdTiger
ML-20/Priest/Sexton/25-pounder +50% Damage vs Elephant and JagdTiger
*Numbers should not be taken exactly and are only meant to display intention
The intention being to allow infantry AT to actually do consistent damage to the Heavy TDs if they manage to flank or get within range. The TDs still will have large health pools and wouldn't be at too much risk but could be atleast damaged and forced away for repairs to allow allies a few moments with armored support to fight back.
As well the artillery changes, would give a more solid way to damage them in deadlocks if they opt for those. Especially in those more clustered 3v3+ modes where flanking isn't an option. Considering the low accuracy on artillery this should only allow them to premptively damage or finish off a weakened heavy TD as no more then 1-2 shots can usually hit per volley.
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But I have to admit that the artillery change vs them is quite interesting.
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I believe that the lack of mobility and flexibility, is qualitatively enough to prevent this recent, relatively minor quantitative buff from making them overpowered, and I question the necessity of them--indeed, anything--having full counters.Yeah in my mind artillery should be the ultimate deadlock breaker. Seeing a recent 4v4 while a Jagdtiger sat there chewing through a defensive line of allied TDs, mediums, and heavies all while being barraged by dual priests to minor effect is what inspired me to make this thread.
But I have to admit that the artillery change vs them is quite interesting.
The sad thing is it was such a fun back and forth match up until that point. But even with a hugely varied allied force with just about every type of unit you could see from the allies, we were all powerless in the face of the Jagdtiger.
don't want this to become all about 4v4 though. It's still be really annoying when set up in the center of a 2v2 match as well.
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You can't use them on every map (especially urban ones) and on open maps flanking them isn't that hard. The Jadgtiger even has a stun mechanic were you can easily stunlock it do death. They also removed focus sight from the Elefant meaning fortified armor Elefant can no longer self sight.
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Considering their slowest speed and terrible rotation speed and poor rear armor, they are not that good enough,already there are no players using the JT,dont nerf these units to ground pls.
Posts: 2053
sexton
Sexton itself isnt a counter to anything given its pitiful performance, somehow, compared to the priest.
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Most of the reliable counters are going to be British, and when it comes to 4v4, you are simply going to need at least one British teammate to take out heavy armor. Its practically why Relic designed them the way they are.
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Posts: 738
Yeah in my mind artillery should be the ultimate deadlock breaker. Seeing a recent 4v4 while a Jagdtiger sat there chewing through a defensive line of allied TDs, mediums, and heavies all while being barraged by dual priests to minor effect is what inspired me to make this thread.
The sad thing is it was such a fun back and forth match up until that point. But even with a hugely varied allied force with just about every type of unit you could see from the allies, we were all powerless in the face of the Jagdtiger.
don't want this to become all about 4v4 though. It's still be really annoying when set up in the center of a 2v2 match as well.
I don't want to yell L2P here, but the JT/ele is anything but uncounterable in 2's or 4's.
There's a reason 90% of OKW players get a jagdpanzer over a JT. Mostly because allies can get about 3-4 tanks for the same price as single JT. It's a sitting duck to m10/T-34 swarms and mark target.
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Posts: 482
Sexton itself isnt a counter to anything given its pitiful performance, somehow, compared to the priest.
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Most of the reliable counters are going to be British, and when it comes to 4v4, you are simply going to need at least one British teammate to take out heavy armor. Its practically why Relic designed them the way they are.
Yes try Brits in team games,you can see how powerful it is in late game. Though not sure sexon is useful.
And for JT and ele,already they are limited to only one, I don't see any upcoming nerf is needed.
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The King Tiger is expensive too. But there is clear nondoctrinal counters in each faction with TDs that can kite it. None of the thing you guys have mentioned seem to fit that.
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Allies should not be able to counter axis units because krupp steel
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