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russian armor

Buff Conscript PPSh-41 long range to match Mosin DPS

30 Aug 2015, 01:28 AM
#21
avatar of Jaedrik

Posts: 446 | Subs: 2


Zero tactical tradeoff, like everything else I listed.

I believe you're misunderstanding my statement.
By opportunity cost, I mean all the other things you could be doing with the munitions.
30 Aug 2015, 01:42 AM
#22
avatar of Flying Dustbin

Posts: 270 | Subs: 1

IMO PPSH upgrade should be a default thing. Would be a nice contrast to the Gren LMG, with conscripts being aggressive up close with PPSHs and Molotovs and Grens sitting at range with their LMGs and Rifle 'nades

There are a lot of useless commanders with things like Hit The Dirt which you could give to Cons as stock which would hopefully make them not broken but also stop them from being late game axis fodder.
30 Aug 2015, 02:06 AM
#23
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

IMO PPSH upgrade should be a default thing. Would be a nice contrast to the Gren LMG, with conscripts being aggressive up close with PPSHs and Molotovs and Grens sitting at range with their LMGs and Rifle 'nades.


I agree, make it like the BAR from CoH1, a global upgrade that gives 3 PPSh to every squad, which improves short range DPS but doesn't ruin long range.
30 Aug 2015, 05:39 AM
#24
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 01:28 AMJaedrik

I believe you're misunderstanding my statement.
By opportunity cost, I mean all the other things you could be doing with the munitions.



that's insignificant though as literally everything in the game has that (faction choice, mp/fuel/mun, timing choices, etc.).
30 Aug 2015, 06:03 AM
#25
avatar of Jaedrik

Posts: 446 | Subs: 2




that's insignificant though as literally everything in the game has that (faction choice, mp/fuel/mun, timing choices, etc.).

Not at all.
In fact, opportunity cost is the sum of everything that could have been done otherwise with the munitions.
That it is so common place does not diminish its significance.
Resource management is an integral part of this game.
One might say it adds depth.
30 Aug 2015, 06:30 AM
#26
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

I would like to see something like SVT aor even AVT upgrade as a non-doc upgrade for Cons, but not Penals' SVTs, something that deal damage, not a peashooter.

But anyway, Cons must scale better (duh), and a very important part of it is non doctrinal upgrades. Fresh Grens gain vet fast if you call them late game, but good luck buying fresh units late game as Soviets.
30 Aug 2015, 06:40 AM
#27
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 06:30 AMRMMLz
I would like to see something like SVT aor even AVT upgrade as a non-doc upgrade for Cons, but not Penals' SVTs, something that deal damage, not a peashooter.

But anyway, Cons must scale better (duh), and a very important part of it is non doctrinal upgrades. Fresh Grens gain vet fast if you call them late game, but good luck buying fresh units late game as Soviets.


+ 1
30 Aug 2015, 08:20 AM
#28
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

My suggestion is to give the cons 4 PPSH, but also give cons some received accuracy with the upgrade like 0.8 to help them close the gap
30 Aug 2015, 08:24 AM
#29
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
They should be default an increase dps at all ranges
30 Aug 2015, 08:26 AM
#30
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 08:20 AMBurts
My suggestion is to give the cons 4 PPSH, but also give cons some received accuracy with the upgrade like 0.8 to help them close the gap


This would give them better received accuracy then Grens, Sturms, Fallsch, and the same received accuracy as Pgrens and JLI. At vet 3 they would have one of the best received accuracy values in the game.

Shocks 100% 35 32 1.66 1.5 armor
Conscripts 108.7% 35 20 1
Guard/CE/Penal 100% 35 27/21/22 1

Ostheer:
Pioneers 100% 42 25 1.25
Grenadiers 91% 35 30 1.75
Assault gren 100% 35 28 1.4
PGrens 80% 35 42 2
Ostruppen 125% 35 16 0.833 1 sec reinforce
Stormtroopers 75% 35 33 2.25

USF:
Rifle/Lieut/Capt 97% 35 28/25/30 1.4/1.5/1.5
RE 100% 35 20 1
Pathfinder 100% 50 37 2
Paratrooper 100% 35 28 1.5
AE 100% 35 32 1.75 ignore snow movement penalties

OKW:
Volksgrenadier 100% 35 23 1.2
Pfusilier 100% 35 24 1.166
Sturmpio 87% 35 32 2 ignore snow movement penalties
Obersoldaten 70% 35 50 2.5
Jaeger 80% 50 37 2
Fallschirm 87% 35 47 2.5
30 Aug 2015, 08:30 AM
#31
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



This would give them better received accuracy then Grens, Sturms, Fallsch, and the same received accuracy as Pgrens and JLI. At vet 3 they would have one of the best received accuracy values in the game.


Short range only infantry with low damage, short range upgrade would have better rec acc then dedicated long range infantry and mid range infantry with incomparably better weapons, so that short range infantry with short range upgrade wouldn't be torn apart on approach and actually stand up long enough to deal damage with their weak weapons despite them being dedicated CQC doctrinal upgrade?

Who in his right mind would do that?

Oh, I know!

Anyone having a slightest clue on how balance works!
30 Aug 2015, 08:37 AM
#32
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702



This would give them better received accuracy then Grens, Sturms, Fallsch, and the same received accuracy as Pgrens and JLI. At vet 3 they would have one of the best received accuracy values in the game.

\]


Keep in mind that cons have a base 1.087 accuracy modifier, so giving them a 0.8 would just mean


1.087 x 0.80 = 0.87


Alternitavely you can just buff the DPS of the con PPSH to match shock troop levels, or slightly worse than that.


But it's pretty clear that con ppsh upgrade is a huge waste and needs a buff.
30 Aug 2015, 08:39 AM
#33
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 08:30 AMKatitof

Short range only infantry with short range upgrade would have better rec acc then dedicated long range infantry and mid range infantry with incomparably better weapons, so that short range infantry with short range upgrade wouldn't be torn apart on approach and actually stand up long enough to deal damage with their weak weapons despite them being dedicated CQC doctrinal upgrade?

Who in his right mind would do that?

Oh, I know!

Anyone having a slightest clue on how balance works!


I don't think you understand the implications of a squad with 6 models while having a received accuracy value at Vet 3 that would make high vet JLI blush. Like recieved accuracy works like this; it's really effective versus rifled slow firing units (hint: this is what most Axis units use) and not really all that powerful versus rapid fire weapons (which is a very large part of why LMG's are insanely good).

Yes obviously with PPSh's they wouldn't be doing a whole lot at range but they would be terrifying on urban maps and be able to stand up to fairly withering fire along with cheap reinforcing. Would be a fairly problematic combination.

There have been very good suggestions in this thread like making it a global upgrade or simply adding more to the squad to make it punch harder but giving Conscripts better durability than 320 - 440 MP units for 60 munitions is really silly.
30 Aug 2015, 08:43 AM
#34
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 08:37 AMBurts
\]


Keep in mind that cons have a base 1.087 accuracy modifier, so giving them a 0.8 would just mean


1.087 x 0.80 = 0.87


Alternitavely you can just buff the DPS of the con PPSH to match shock troop levels, or slightly worse than that.


But it's pretty clear that con ppsh upgrade is a huge waste and needs a buff.


The way you worded it made it sound like it would change their received accuracy to .8, since that's how it's worked in the unit files (in target size basically). But still it would give them better received accuracy than Grens and the same received accuracy as Sturms (320 MP) and Fallsch (440 MP).

Add on top of that -23% received accuracy at vet 3 and they would have better received accuracy than vet 0 Obers.
30 Aug 2015, 08:43 AM
#35
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



I don't think you understand the implications of a squad with 6 models while having a received accuracy value at Vet 3 that would make high vet JLI blush. Like recieved accuracy works like this; it's really effective versus rifled slow firing units (hint: this is what most Axis units use) and not really all that powerful versus rapid fire weapons (which is a very large part of why LMG's are insanely good).

Yes obviously with PPSh's they wouldn't be doing a whole lot at range but they would be terrifying on urban maps and be able to stand up to fairly withering fire along with cheap reinforcing. Would be a fairly problematic combination.

There have been very good suggestions in this thread like making it a global upgrade or simply adding more to the squad to make it punch harder but giving Conscripts better durability than 320 - 440 MP units for 60 munitions is really silly.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 08:37 AMBurts



Keep in mind that cons have a base 1.087 accuracy modifier, so giving them a 0.8 would just mean


1.087 x 0.80 = 0.87


This means that your claim is wrong.
30 Aug 2015, 08:47 AM
#36
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 08:43 AMKatitof



This means that your claim is wrong.



The way you worded it made it sound like it would change their received accuracy to .8, since that's how it's worked in the unit files (in target size basically). But still it would give them better received accuracy than Grens and the same received accuracy as Sturms (320 MP) and Fallsch (440 MP).

Add on top of that -23% received accuracy at vet 3 and they would have better received accuracy than vet 0 Obers.


It's currently 4:44 AM here. So yeah sorry if my reading skills aren't up to snuff.

To elaborate. At .87 received accuracy + their Vet 3 times .77 received accuracy would give them 0.6699 received accuracy which would make them one of the cheapest units to reinforce in the game while having better durability than Obersoldaten.

30 Aug 2015, 09:00 AM
#37
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 08:43 AMKatitof

This means that your claim is wrong.



It's currently 4:44 AM here. So yeah sorry if my reading skills aren't up to snuff.


:romeoMug:
30 Aug 2015, 09:13 AM
#38
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Also probably should point this out to: received accuracy is multiplicative not additive meaning there is diminishing returns on additional levels of reduced received accuracy, for instance.....

Vet 0 Sturms: .87

Vet 2 Sturms: 0.6699

Vet 4 Sturms: 0.515823

Vet 0 Obers: .7

Vet 3 Obers: 0.497

Vet 4 Obers: 0.35287

30 Aug 2015, 09:45 AM
#39
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830

A. Should be a non doctrinal HQ upgrade

B. Should do more damage close up and be able to do damage at medium range

30 Aug 2015, 10:24 AM
#40
avatar of Cabreza

Posts: 656

One of the things that has always bothered me about PPSH and SMGs in general is how close you have to get to do damage. You pretty much have to stand right next to the enemy to get any benefit. PPSH would be in a better place if their weapon profile was closer to the short/medium range profile ARs such as the STG currently enjoy.
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