Howitzer play and counterplay

Doesn't it have a faster cooldown on the barrage?

Plus we all know LefH way better with vet ability counter-barrage

The both have the exact same cool down and counter-barrage is worse than the normal barrage

If you changed it so they couldn't fire into FOW you'd have to really rebalance them because they would be borderline useless without compensating buffs. They'd probably need to be less scatter/more accurate if you had to have spotters the whole time.


Moving into the future, the British model of 25 pounders as part of the base tech structure, but the guns only firing when used as part of abilities is a good one. You don't need to pay extra, and the artillery support is tied to pyrotechnic supplies from units that basically throw them as grenades, or as part of a doctrinal ability. The ability to counter-play them with stukka dive bombs is not so important anymore, because their existence on the battlefield is more a supplement to existing forces rather than a setpiece unit that wins games by itself. Sort of like what OP wants to achieve here with making them require LoS! The British ones compensate for their relative weakness by being "Free" (i.e. don't cost 600mp and take up a shitload of popcap).

IMO on-map arty has always been a bit of an aberration to design, even in CoH1 days.

The both have the exact same cool down and counter-barrage is worse than the normal barrage

Yeah but I thought that the LefH's timer began from when it started firing? I haven't checked actually but someone mentioned it here.

Don't say that. Counter-barrage is best barrage
New ML-20 vet ability is Secure territory

It's somewhat of a crap situation atm. Arty is insanely powerful when there are no counters but as soon as there is a counter there is pretty much no point in building it.

Any solution needs to address not only the power of arty pieces but also how easily some commanders hard counter them.

Its easy. Dissallow to shoot into the base sector.

Yeah but I thought that the LefH's timer began from when it started firing? I haven't checked actually but someone mentioned it here.

Don't say that. Counter-barrage is best barrage
New ML-20 vet ability is Secure territory

They both have the exact same cooldown, it's just that the LeFH shows it's cooldown while you barrage but the ML-20 doesn't show the cooldown ticker until after, but they still will have the same time left to fire after barraging.

Also counter-barrage only does more damage on direct hits, as it's AoE profile is exactly the same. It fires only 6 shells to, compared to the 12 of the normal barrage.

Its easy. Dissallow to shoot into the base sector.

This doesn't solve the fact it's way to punishing for OKW who lacks counters.

This doesn't solve the fact it's way to punishing for OKW who lacks counters.

So give OKW counters instead of nerfing howies.

So give OKW counters instead of nerfing howies.

Still need to do something to make the LeFH not a waste of time.

Still need to do something to make the LeFH not a waste of time.

Its not that hard.
Better accuracy, ROF, more shells for lefh.
For ML only higher damage and range.

Wait till brists emplacements and lefh will shine.

They both have the exact same cooldown, it's just that the LeFH shows it's cooldown while you barrage but the ML-20 doesn't show the cooldown ticker until after, but they still will have the same time left to fire after barraging.

Also counter-barrage only does more damage on direct hits, as it's AoE profile is exactly the same. It fires only 6 shells to, compared to the 12 of the normal barrage.

So it does fire faster right? I think you said so yourself in a recent thread as it begins CD before going through firing all 10 shells, which takes quite a while. Anyone know the exact numbers?

A lot of people seem to think the LefH is fine including the counter barrage. I haven't used it enough myself to make a proper opinion, but it has mauled me on Ettelbruck at least. I'll try it out the next few days if possible.

So it does fire faster right? I think you said so yourself in a recent thread as it begins CD before going through firing all 10 shells, which takes quite a while. Anyone know the exact numbers?

A lot of people seem to think the LefH is fine including the counter barrage. I haven't used it enough myself to make a proper opinion, but it has mauled me on Ettelbruck at least. I'll try it out the next few days if possible.

Both howitzers begin their cool down when you start firing. For all intensive purposes the LefH and ML-20 are functionally identical except the ML-20 has more damage (300) compared to the LefH's (160).

indirect fire units already have a scatter penalty when barraging into fog. its like 20% or something like that i believe

Static artillery has always only been a snowball tool. When you are pressuring your opponent well and he really spends resources on an artillery, there is no way it will save him. But on the other hand, when your opponent has the game under control enough (either through mistakes you made, his superior micro or faction-specific timing windows) that he can afford artillery and still maintain said control, then it becomes really annoying. Everytime you have an engagement and both are forced to retreat, his artillery gives him the edge.

If you then also lack counters, it feels very frustrating. All of the above is of course magnified in team games, where the maps are bigger.

Artillery always comes with the drawback of lacking capping power or delaying tech. If it doesn't get punished by constant pressure you are in a bad spot once it get's going.

Removing it entirely is a very harsh reaction tho. I have no solutions. :B

Make them so u can't build them in your base and can't target enemy base with it.
I know it removes one of the tactic but with the lack of direct counters I'm more than happy to sacrifice that.

make them cost fuel, so OKW can build stuka to counter them with an equal fuel cost.

An easy fix would be to lower the armor of the Howitzers to 25 (which currently is something like 70).

Which means light vehicle like the luchs could be used to sneak in and destroy them.

indirect fire units already have a scatter penalty when barraging into fog. its like 20% or something like that i believe

I think it is exactly 1,25.
Counter-barrage does 200 dmg instead of 160. 25% Damage increase is something u shouldnt overlook.

make them cost fuel, so OKW can build stuka to counter them with an equal fuel cost.

How is a Stuka supposed to even hit them?

Counter-barrage does 200 dmg instead of 160. 25% Damage increase is something u shouldnt overlook.

They have the exact same AoE damage profile meaning only on direct hits you will ever do 200 damage, which I think you can grasp is a fairly rare thing on a howitzer.

not blobbing is an excellent counter to artillery. if your enemy invests a lot of manpower in something that cannot cap (static artillery) or apply map pressure, you should be able to punish him for that

not blobbing is an excellent counter to artillery. if your enemy invests a lot of manpower in something that cannot cap (static artillery) or apply map pressure, you should be able to punish him for that

+1

And don't get routed (which is likely if you blob and miss). All howitzers are very hit and miss most matches, if the player is clumping up in static positions or blobbing and routing it's exceptional. If they're playing well and only 1 or 2 squads will ever be caught it's hard to make the MP back

To be fair though, proper counters are lacking but they always have been. CoH1 was still reliant usually on Terror to get rid of howitzers. All sides struggle to counter howitzers non-doctrinally, Ostheer have the best time because CAS or Jaegar armour is so common. Allies do struggle to counter the LefH, but it's range limits it a bit more than the ML-20 (not in 1v1, where they both extend across the map really).