State of USF

What is up everyone, I have decided to write this post as an attempt to explain my view on what I read on these forums almost daily since I have played enough games of the USF faction to have an opinion on it, if you are a 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 player take this with a grain of salt since I haven't experienced team games with USF, albeit theoretically they shouldn't be bad even in them.

Let me start by adressing three main points that are often made about USF:

First, the lack of a super tank, which isn't a must for a faction to be good, I think many of the players expressing their opinion here fail to see that USF isn't supposed to be played as any other faction in the game. In CoH1 US had the pershing but it was even barely used, the US faction could completely play around the fact that they had no kind of a super strong tank. USF requires more strategical though to be effective, and that's a a point Im going to make a lot through this post.

Second, riflemen falling behind other infantry units veterancy wise, this is the point that in my opinion might have more truth to it but it's not the veterancy that is the problem (although a buff on it even if small would help) it's how useless the BARs are, In all my USF games I have purchased BARs maybe in 5% of them. They are basically a worse version of the flamer you can get in the Elite infantry commander, flamers are the equivalent of what BARs were in CoH1, they allow for agressive play with riflemen. If I were to make a big change it would be in them, make them cost more but have a much bigger impact.

Third, USF having too much MP drain, this is again revolved around what I have said before, USF is a different faction, you have to play around the riflemen losses and make your offensives as effective as possible, USF even if it doesn't appear isn't a noob faction, it's actually probably the hardest faction to handle. Mistakes in USF get punished MUCH more, but the fact that the units themselves offer so much diversity in gameplay pays off, IF you know how to use it.

Now that I have made those points I wanted to clarify what makes USF strong and what people fail to do as USF. So if you are a CoH1 player and have watched high competitive games in which a player played US then you know that flanking was a MUST, if you blobbed up you lost. If your flanking failed it could lead to big losses and snowball to a loss rapidly, HOWEVER US were always a two-edged sword, because if you master the flanking and managing how much MP you can lose on an engage in order to keep teching then you could beat opponents in 10 minutes. USF from CoH2 is a bit different though but the thinking behind it is the same, flanking is your biggest weapon, and with the addition of things like smoke grenades it makes things even easier to pull flanks off. That's the USF strength and at the same time what people fail to do with this faction, it's actually pretty annoying to see these posts saying USF is super UP just because you can't use the faction effectively since they are not the same as the others and require other levels of attention. Sometimes I feel like Im going through the endless posts ranting about champions that have no problems over on League of legends.

To conclude if I had to point problems to USF as why they are slightly weaker ( not meaning they have a super big gap as people make seem) is that BARs are pratically useless, riflemen might need a SMALL buff on the veterancy and some units like the howietzer need a slight buff. Other than that I hope that in this coming torney me and simon (aka aimstrong) can show people that USF is not weak.

Have a nice day.

EDIT: I forgot to add for those people that need results to approve a post that Im currently top 7 USF 1v1 under the name "Insane C++" with the goal of getting top 1 soon (not a game spammer).

Quality post, it's really helpful and I hope that people will read it. With my verry little experience in 1v1 with USF and more in 2v2 I would like to say though that riflemen are a verry hard unit to balance. One tiny change could make them OP or UP in a split of a sec. For instance I think that buffing bars will have that unfortunate effect, because, in my experience, riflemen are a quite good mainline infantry throughout the game and especially in start and middle game. Their problem, as you stated it corectly, is their veterancy progress which could be better. I would rather make the BAR and bazooka cheaper from amo point of view. These are my 2 cents.

i support buff to US. They will stop whine SU OP hopefully when they face normal units.
Overall when they lost to smth - they didnt try to adapt, even to think. They just say nerf it. Exelent sample of it was the very 1st day of july 31 patch when they created tons of nerf sovs posts.


But i donty like idea of us rocket trucks or heavies cuz it will become a copy of other factions.
They better have different things but powerful. Like arty with a truck to move it.

Flanking should be the way to go from early to mid game, on this I fully agree, but late game new options should be enable at T2 and T3. What is left to you if you didn't force your opponent to quite the game before late game? Nothing. He is turtling? Can't do shit.
If Ostheer have his strong support units early game, if OKW have his super resilient tanks late game, USF should get beast of support units late game.

You are right when you say M26 wasn't that used in coh1, because USF don't need a super unit, it need helps to maintain his glass cannon units:
vCoh supply Depot ugrades to help you managing your Manpower
vcoh munition trade to tank attrition
vcoh attrition reinforcement linked to infantry doc
+
A fucking indirect fire that work.
Vcoh each of 3 doctrines had one:
Howitzer in Infantry
Paradrop mortar + reco in airborn
Calliope in Armor

When people say USF is a bad faction because you're forced to "blob" rifles I already know that they have no idea what they're talking about because blobbing rifles is is the worst thing you can do as US in 1v1.

However DevM you gotta keep in mind that this isn't vCoH. Wehrmacht players don't need to turtle. MGs aren't even necessary because at the time your standard US infantry gets its upgrades the WH player already has LMGs on his grens. And at this point in the game the Wehrmacht player can spread up his forces just like you. What are you going to flank if there's lmg Grens running around everywhere ? And don't get me started on OKW. This faction doesn't even have MGs as stock units and it's more likely that he's going to go Jäger Infantry rather than MGs. So again the question is what to flank ?

I fully agree with the direction your post is going though. People misunderstand how to play USF and call them underpowered. I just had a discussion about that yesterday.

Mines and rifle scaling....

The weopan BAR itself is very good and has high dps, the problem is that rifles only get accuracy at vet3, which happens during the transition from mid to lategame and by that time opposing inf units have recived acc modifiers and small target sizes. I suggest switch rifle vet2 with vet3

The healing rate of the ambulance is also low, should be increased.

Put bars or lmgs on RE's. They have 1.2x accuracy at vet1. they will do very very well offensively

Interesting this.

it's how useless the BARs are, In all my USF games I have purchased BARs maybe in 5% of them. They are basically a worse version of the flamer you can get in the Elite infantry commander, flamers are the equivalent of what BARs were in CoH1, they allow for agressive play with riflemen. If I were to make a big change it would be in them, make them cost more but have a much bigger impact.

Your post was all going well until this.

Imagine a world where BAR's are buffed to the point of gren MG42's, now imagine two of these BAR's equipped on a pathfinder squad. You know have a gimmicky balance problem even worse than Conscript PTRS's.

Second, riflemen falling behind other infantry units veterancy wise, this is the point that in my opinion might have more truth to it but it's not the veterancy that is the problem (although a buff on it even if small would help) it's how useless the BARs are, In all my USF games I have purchased BARs maybe in 5% of them. They are basically a worse version of the flamer you can get in the Elite infantry commander, flamers are the equivalent of what BARs were in CoH1, they allow for agressive play with riflemen. If I were to make a big change it would be in them, make them cost more but have a much bigger impact.

Imo: Its not that Bars are useless, its just that you have an other option way way way better, Flamers.

Pros:
- Aoe damage
- Can instakill low health Entity
- Ignore reduce receive accuracy stat
- 20 Range, Same efficiency at min and max range ( This is huge )
- Nullify cover ( +Bonus damage against garrisoned units )
- Flamers love clumb up units ( and this is not fixed yet )
- No more explode ( Can explode only if 1 entity remain )
- Come in a doctrine where every ability is usefull ( at least for me )
- Can clear mines / S-mines
- Can damage structures ( ex Bunker, Trucks )
- Can Shoot through Fog of war with G-click
- No need to go in the Base to equip them, just buy them in your territory and wait

Cons:
- Cannot shot on the move ( thanks god )

This is why Elite rifleman company is chosen, a lot

Its only my opinion.

On DevM's opinion for B.A.R.S. I agree somewhat B.A.R.s are sometimes sub-par on riflez but that's mostly due to bad veterancy scaling and lmg gren blobberinos. However have you tried getting 2-3 RE squads and equipping them with BARS late game especially vs OKW? They're quite useful as they gain vet with them well and scale much more effectively than Riflez into the late game when equipped with said weapon. However this usually works best when you're not building more than 3 rifles. As a side note the nice thing about B.A.R.s on Riflez over Flamerz is that you have better medium-long range DPS, rather than relying on Flamerz for that short range DPS critage, which can backfire on more open maps vs LMG Grens hordes and mg spam even when smoke is used.

Now onto the USF mp problem. I find the reinforcement cost towards the late game for rifles to be a bit of a cross-over between bad veterancy scaling and huge reinforcement cost if you build 4+. You have said that if and only if USF utilizes itself through each offensive push effectively then they are at their best. I agree to a certain extent because, as many have said, if your opponent is as smart as you are he'll know what to expect half the time and be able to slowly bleed you if he goes for a long term buildup of units....i.e. lmg blobs, OKW blobs, pak walls, dbl mg lockdowns, fast stuka + jadg, etc.

Utilizing USF effectively takes time, patience, and careful timing. Not constant flanking imho. Though flanking does have a direct effect on some offensives. Overall if the enemy is smart and expects your flank you could be bled very well/possibly lose the engagement horribly via unit preservation. Since USF doesn't have any heavy tanks at their disposal(something I don't entirely mind) you need to make sure your inf build up is acquainted with a strong armor combo because without medium tanks as USF towards the late game it is almost impossible to crack your enemy if he is evenly skilled, as it is with all factions. Armor + Inf are key. Now while USF has an interesting selection of late game armor most of the tier-made pieces of armor are much easier to deal with than if it is selected via a doctrine giving you the ability to utilize much more effective pieces of armor, which I find to be a slight problem. USF Shermans, while effective vs inf and medium tanks with the switch of a gun can be easily cornered and taken out by pak walls + fausts + shreks + jadgs + almost literally everything due to it's slow speed and maneuverability. With the Jackson it's paper thin armor for high effective dps makes it an easy thing to hunt down and destroy with the right tools(i.e. shreks, fausts, multiple tanks, jadgs, etc.) and the scott, while good in it's own right, at 75 fuel is a bit of a heavy investment and can be easily hunted down by what was listed above.

Now onto the fun part, Riflez.
Rifles, I honestly, feel are strong in there own sense, however scale a bit harshly into the late game and have a hard time utilizing their own special weapons(except for the flamer riflez) without serious mp bleed. The only time I've found them to be useful is when I utilized dbl bazookas on two rifles to assist in fighting medium armor specifically. Other than that I have found equipping rifles with special weaponry aren't worth it in the long run cost wise when other munition abilities can be better utilized(i.e. BAR REs, Nades, Smoke Nades, Demos, etc.). Now here's the catch with riflez. I personally believe riflez don't need DPS specific buffs, armor buffs, etc. etc., what they need are adjustments to their scaling into the late game(via veterancy, model setup, mp bleed). This can be accomplished in several ways.
1. Make vet 3 rifles cheaper to reinforce, have faster reinforce and the ability to use special abilities in a slightly more efficient way.
2. Make vet 2 and vet 3 rifles have better veterancy perks(i.e. increased accuracy at vet 2, and more efficient fire or stronger defensive bonuses at vet 3.
3. Change the way Riflez operate. Give them an option to either have stronger armor or stronger offensive capabilities. Increase rifle squads to possibly 6 men instead of 5 at vet 3.

Lastly, to re-iterate I feel smoke usage with USF, while effective in certain scenarios can honestly back-fire more than be actually useful. This is because people don't realize if you're smoking an mg42 your flanking for example, or smoking to get past something that is a threat to your inf DPS wise, closing in on the gap can backfire pretty badly since your enemy will see the smoke and immediately know what is coming, thus allowing him to prepare a simple counter to what you have by backing away and preparing the DPS onslaught.

I feel in the big picture USF simply needs, as with many other factions to a different extent more diversity and utilization of everything they already have included in the faction via balance touches or changes to the way certain abilities are forced to be utilized. I have found with my own personal USF 1v1 strat utilizing different things and knowing when to use them effectively against the enemy makes USF a special little snowflake in a field of charred riflemen bodies.

-Rank #3 USF

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Thanks for your posts and the inside they offer DevM and VonIvan, good reading.

They're quite useful as they gain vet with them well and scale much more effectively than Riflez into the late game when equipped with said weapon.

I got a question about this. In case there wasn´t a chance these are the vet boni for Riflemen and Rear Echelon Troops:

Riflemen
Vet1: Unlocks the 'Anti-Tank Rifle Grenade' ability
Vet2: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
Vet3: +30% accuracy, -50% ability recharge time, +25% grenade range

Rear Echelon Troops
Vet1: +20% accuracy
Vet2: Increases the squad's size to 5, +50% repair speed
Vet3: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

Why are the RE´s much better then the Riflemen?

Thanks for your posts and the inside they offer DevM and VonIvan, good reading.



I got a question about this. In case there wasn´t a chance these are the vet boni for Riflemen and Rear Echelon Troops:

Riflemen
Vet1: Unlocks the 'Anti-Tank Rifle Grenade' ability
Vet2: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
Vet3: +30% accuracy, -50% ability recharge time, +25% grenade range

Rear Echelon Troops
Vet1: +20% accuracy
Vet2: Increases the squad's size to 5, +50% repair speed
Vet3: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

Why are the RE´s much better then the Riflemen?

Due to low reinforcement cost

Thanks for your posts and the inside they offer DevM and VonIvan, good reading.



I got a question about this. In case there wasn´t a chance these are the vet boni for Riflemen and Rear Echelon Troops:

Riflemen
Vet1: Unlocks the 'Anti-Tank Rifle Grenade' ability
Vet2: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
Vet3: +30% accuracy, -50% ability recharge time, +25% grenade range

Rear Echelon Troops
Vet1: +20% accuracy
Vet2: Increases the squad's size to 5, +50% repair speed
Vet3: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

Why are the RE´s much better then the Riflemen?

Because cost to field and maintain them alone makes up for the 10% loss of accuracy and you're getting the accuracy as your first bonus instead of last.

There is no point replacing lost rifles with more rifles in late game, because RETs will achieve vet3 in no time, do not have crippling bleed and are much more cost effective with BARs or M1919s then rifles.

Its always good to open with rifles, but its never good to replace loses with rifles.

In past it used to be the RETs who were zooka platform, now its rifles.

Due to low reinforcement cost

Interesting, I've seen a few people mention using BARs on RETs and now I'm intrigued to try it. I do wonder though, how do RETs compare to Rifles in terms of received accuracy/survivability? I've always shyed away from spending Munis on them because I feel as if they are super squishy. Is it better to straightaway give them BARs or only late-game when you're buying them to replace lost Rifles? Would be cool if BARs buffed Volley Fire to make it non-shit.

how do RETs compare to Rifles in terms of received accuracy/survivability?

No difference when both are vet3. Rifles will have bit more firepower, but RETs won't bleed you to the point where you have 500 fuel and no more then 10 mp.

Its also best to give them BARs ASAP.

Don't they get a 5th man as well at vet 2?

still cant handle MG spam

Nice thread thanks !

Don't they get a 5th man as well at vet 2?

Yep.

Thanks for your posts and the inside they offer DevM and VonIvan, good reading.



I got a question about this. In case there wasn´t a chance these are the vet boni for Riflemen and Rear Echelon Troops:

Riflemen
Vet1: Unlocks the 'Anti-Tank Rifle Grenade' ability
Vet2: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
Vet3: +30% accuracy, -50% ability recharge time, +25% grenade range

Rear Echelon Troops
Vet1: +20% accuracy
Vet2: Increases the squad's size to 5, +50% repair speed
Vet3: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

Why are the RE´s much better then the Riflemen?

Low reinforcement Cost, 20 mp vs 28 mp. Get 5 men at vet 2. Gain veterancy faster than rifles due to the way they operate with a higher dps weapon rather than their crappy pew pew riflez(plus better veterancy scaling imho than rifles with the BAR). They also have much better squad formation than rifles and drop BARs a little less frequently than Rifles for the most part. That's why.
Though I do recommend for anyone trying out REs, to never, ever, ever, ever blob them CaptainSPrice style or spam more than 3 on the battlefield. It'll be a waste to have just an RE army imho and backfire especially towards the late game. Rifles, while not scaling as well as REs still have more effective anti-inf abilities where as REs have more effective repair abilities.

I find the USF lack of indirect fire frightening to say the least. If I cannot keep my opponent off balance all game they quickly convert to a static battle and force me to use munitions heavily to even move on the map. At this point its a waiting game since better and better units are coming down the line, but I will cap out at a mobile AT gun called the Jackson.

USF has limited combined arms, its pop is eaten up by tech costs(!) and healing, rifles require tons of micro, and the tanks are interesting but are difficult to keep alive. The need for vet 1 for a number of USf abilities (Rifle nades, radar net, smoke) means the loss of any veteran unit immediately places you on the defensive since all other units are now affected. The pop cost to tech is brutal late game as you may want something in a tier you don't have access to (like mines) but your tech will push you to near pop cap. Even if you manage to have the pop unlocked you still pay to have another rifle squad in upkeep at minimum and if you send it into combat another MP bleeding unit when you may not want it. Locking tech behind pop cap was not a good move.

Until such time as the USF plays are more interesting than building some form of rifled infantry I don't see them as particularly impressive faction. USF is currently a chore to play.

Also where is my arty? One of the most artillery based armies of the war and one doc piece of arty? Really?

Why is it better to put zooks on Riflemen?