State of USF

What is up everyone, I have decided to write this post as an attempt to explain my view on what I read on these forums almost daily since I have played enough games of the USF faction to have an opinion on it, if you are a 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 player take this with a grain of salt since I haven't experienced team games with USF, albeit theoretically they shouldn't be bad even in them.

Let me start by adressing three main points that are often made about USF:

First, the lack of a super tank, which isn't a must for a faction to be good, I think many of the players expressing their opinion here fail to see that USF isn't supposed to be played as any other faction in the game. In CoH1 US had the pershing but it was even barely used, the US faction could completely play around the fact that they had no kind of a super strong tank. USF requires more strategical though to be effective, and that's a a point Im going to make a lot through this post.

Second, riflemen falling behind other infantry units veterancy wise, this is the point that in my opinion might have more truth to it but it's not the veterancy that is the problem (although a buff on it even if small would help) it's how useless the BARs are, In all my USF games I have purchased BARs maybe in 5% of them. They are basically a worse version of the flamer you can get in the Elite infantry commander, flamers are the equivalent of what BARs were in CoH1, they allow for agressive play with riflemen. If I were to make a big change it would be in them, make them cost more but have a much bigger impact.

Third, USF having too much MP drain, this is again revolved around what I have said before, USF is a different faction, you have to play around the riflemen losses and make your offensives as effective as possible, USF even if it doesn't appear isn't a noob faction, it's actually probably the hardest faction to handle. Mistakes in USF get punished MUCH more, but the fact that the units themselves offer so much diversity in gameplay pays off, IF you know how to use it.

Now that I have made those points I wanted to clarify what makes USF strong and what people fail to do as USF. So if you are a CoH1 player and have watched high competitive games in which a player played US then you know that flanking was a MUST, if you blobbed up you lost. If your flanking failed it could lead to big losses and snowball to a loss rapidly, HOWEVER US were always a two-edged sword, because if you master the flanking and managing how much MP you can lose on an engage in order to keep teching then you could beat opponents in 10 minutes. USF from CoH2 is a bit different though but the thinking behind it is the same, flanking is your biggest weapon, and with the addition of things like smoke grenades it makes things even easier to pull flanks off. That's the USF strength and at the same time what people fail to do with this faction, it's actually pretty annoying to see these posts saying USF is super UP just because you can't use the faction effectively since they are not the same as the others and require other levels of attention. Sometimes I feel like Im going through the endless posts ranting about champions that have no problems over on League of legends.

To conclude if I had to point problems to USF as why they are slightly weaker ( not meaning they have a super big gap as people make seem) is that BARs are pratically useless, riflemen might need a SMALL buff on the veterancy and some units like the howietzer need a slight buff. Other than that I hope that in this coming torney me and simon (aka aimstrong) can show people that USF is not weak.

Have a nice day.

EDIT: I forgot to add for those people that need results to approve a post that Im currently top 7 USF 1v1 under the name "Insane C++" with the goal of getting top 1 soon (not a game spammer).

Don't forget about mediocre indirect. Nothing like seeing a turtling enemy and not being able to deal with it properly, due to no rocket artillery.

What is up everyone, I have decided to write this post as an attempt to explain my view on what I read on these forums almost daily since I have played enough games of the USF faction to have an opinion on it, if you are a 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 player take this with a grain of salt since I haven't experienced team games with USF, albeit theoretically they shouldn't be bad even in them.

Let me start by adressing three main points that are often made about USF:

First, the lack of a super tank, which isn't a must for a faction to be good, I think many of the players expressing their opinion here fail to see that USF isn't supposed to be played as any other faction in the game. In CoH1 US had the pershing but it was even barely used, the US faction could completely play around the fact that they had no kind of a super strong tank. USF requires more strategical though to be effective, and that's a a point Im going to make a lot through this post.

Second, riflemen falling behind other infantry units veterancy wise, this is the point that in my opinion might have more truth to it but it's not the veterancy that is the problem (although a buff on it even if small would help) it's how useless the BARs are, In all my USF games I have purchased BARs maybe in 5% of them. They are basically a worse version of the flamer you can get in the Elite infantry commander, flamers are the equivalent of what BARs were in CoH1, they allow for agressive play with riflemen. If I were to make a big change it would be in them, make them cost more but have a much bigger impact.

Third, USF having too much MP drain, this is again revolved around what I have said before, USF is a different faction, you have to play around the riflemen losses and make your offensives as effective as possible, USF even if it doesn't appear isn't a noob faction, it's actually probably the hardest faction to handle. Mistakes in USF get punished MUCH more, but the fact that the units themselves offer so much diversity in gameplay pays off, IF you know how to use it.

Now that I have made those points I wanted to clarify what makes USF strong and what people fail to do as USF. So if you are a CoH1 player and have watched high competitive games in which a player played US then you know that flanking was a MUST, if you blobbed up you lost. If your flanking failed it could lead to big losses and snowball to a loss rapidly, HOWEVER US were always a two-edged sword, because if you master the flanking and managing how much MP you can lose on an engage in order to keep teching then you could beat opponents in 10 minutes. USF from CoH2 is a bit different though but the thinking behind it is the same, flanking is your biggest weapon, and with the addition of things like smoke grenades it makes things even easier to pull flanks off. That's the USF strength and at the same time what people fail to do with this faction, it's actually pretty annoying to see these posts saying USF is super UP just because you can't use the faction effectively since they are not the same as the others and require other levels of attention. Sometimes I feel like Im going through the endless posts ranting about champions that have no problems over on League of legends.

To conclude if I had to point problems to USF as why they are slightly weaker ( not meaning they have a super big gap as people make seem) is that BARs are pratically useless, riflemen might need a SMALL buff on the veterancy and some units like the howietzer need a slight buff. Other than that I hope that in this coming torney me and simon (aka aimstrong) can show people that USF is not weak.

Have a nice day.

nice post

interesting read.

USF is still stale


Also don't think it's fair to just forget about the 3v3 4v4 heroes , they're people too you know

USF is still stale

and complete shit save for a few units...

and complete shit save for a few units...

Noooo just stale

Noooo just stale

alright then how so?

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at the close of match;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though Riflemen at their end know dark is right,
Because their veterancy had forked no MP bleed they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good Paratroopers, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced if they were Rangers,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who researched weapon racks to aid in the fight
And learn, too late, that Rear Echelons can't do anything-
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave Riflemen, near death, who see with Trusight™
Blind eyes could blaze like the flaming wrecks of Sherman's-
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, Relic, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce Canadian tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

alright then how so?

Read this mans post, he explains it pretty well

USF is not some frail old woman,(ok maybe in 4v4 they are)

Don't forget about mediocre indirect. Nothing like seeing a turtling enemy and not being able to deal with it properly, due to no rocket artillery.

My biggest problem with USF is really the BARs, because they indirectly make the indirect fire worse. Reason being that in order for my flanks to work I need a good upgrade for the riflemen which happens to be only the flamethrowers, that means that I can't go for the priest doctrine for reliable indirect fire. Now I don't like bringing CoH1 into the conversation much but US there apart from the sniper had no great non doctrinal unit to stop opponents from camping, what it had was doctrine things like the howitzer and calliope which you could freely use since BARs covered the riflemen on the flanking side of things. In CoH2 right now you are mostly stuck with Elite riflemen commander.

and complete shit save for a few units...

You don't need units to be individually stronger than the opposing faction counter-part for the faction to be useful, USF like any other faction has pros and cons and one of the big pros is the riflemen, those units just need to their job okish. Like I said though units like howietzer could use a slight buff.

Agreed, small tweaks on USF and it would be in line with other factions.

It surely is more micro intensive and you get punished by mistakes (with other commanders than Rifle Company) but I've had some really great USF games with truly combined arms.

Also I find that commander pick really makes difference what kind of playstyle you can utilize.

The issue with USF being more micro-intensive isn't terribly bad when it's 1v1, but once you go higher, you can easily get mauled by multiple players' worth of units. At least Ostheer can count on bunkers covering some of your gaps; Fighting Position on the other hand is crap, so defensive structures is not an option for USF.

The closest we can expect for a heavy tank is through doctrines, and frankly, that isn't a solution unless that doctrine becomes the ONLY commander worth playing, which is probably what would happen unless the Pershing unit would play out like crap. In other words, introducing a heavy tank for USF is nice, but ultimately is not (or should not be) a solution but rather an optional extra via commander.

One thing to consider: Volksgrenadiers have no vet1 unlock like most infantry units in this game, they instead gain -10% received accuracy. Riflemen only unlock a critical hit ability (compare with T0 AT capabilities for OKW, and Grenadiers' Panzerfaust also at T0.
IMO, seeing as how USF is really attrition-based, Riflemen's vet1 could be something like passive healing to make up for having high risk of losing men when they are out trying to take the map. Nevermind ambulance is paper armour, slow, and building one means you cannot be using T0 to get weapon rack, grenade upgrade or more men, and healing would only apply out of combat and doesn't replace reinforcing. That, or Ambulance reinforces and heals even when moving.

As you say USF is all about flanking to be effective, I think factional benefits ought to emphasize that, ie BARs allow your units to inflict greater damage if the target unit is not firing back (re they are firing at something else).

Also, no non-doctrinal mines besides investing into LT and M20, whereas everyone else only needs T0 builder unit.

Yeah BARS are meh. But you cannot say USF doesn't need a Pershing in Coh2 because US "didn't need one" in vCoH.

In vCoH you could dive two M10s/Shermans/Hellcats into an enemy tank, and replace the two losses at your HQ for just munitions. Para blob with RR's were ACTUALLY a potent threat to Axis armor much like the current OKW Shreck squads are.

Mines were non doctrinal and could actually be used without pigeon holing yourself into one tech and one unit (whoa, imagine that Lelic).

I don't mean to be that guy who has an orgasm to vCoH, but you cannot justify disqualifying a unit based on their 'usage' in a completely different setting.

DevM, POS Simon, Insane C++, Aimstrong... How come all of these names?

I'm confused.

Anyways, yeah BARS are meh. But you cannot say USF doesn't need a Pershing in Coh2 because US "didn't need one" in vCoH.

In vCoH you could dive two M10s/Shermans/Hellcats into an enemy tank, and replace the two losses at your HQ for just munitions. Para blob with RR's were ACTUALLY a potent threat to Axis armor much like the current OKW Shreck squads are.

Mines were non doctrinal and could actually be used without pigeon holing yourself into one tech and one unit (whoa, imagine that Lelic).

I don't mean to be that guy who has an orgasm to vCoH, but you cannot justify disqualifying a unit based on their 'usage' in a completely different setting.

Sure the setting is not the same (although similar) , but that wasn't my point, you don't need a super tank in every faction for that faction to be good. That's just lazy faction design, you can't or shouldn't fix a faction by adding some random super strong unit that everyone is going to use in order for the people that can't play around the fact that the faction hasn't such a strong unit to stop ranting.

Sure the setting is not the same (although similar) , but that wasn't my point, you don't need a super tank in every faction for that faction to be good. That's just lazy faction design, you can't or shouldn't fix a faction by adding some random super strong unit that everyone is going to use in order for the people that can't play around the fact that the faction hasn't such a strong unit to stop ranting.

I'm not even lobbying for the M26 like some others are, honestly.

I'm aware USF doesn't need a Pershing for every instance but on certain occassions, yes they do.

They have nothing to absorb damage, nothing to breakthrough with, nothing to counter Tiger Ace w/ sight bulletins and even with Pershing, still won't have a counter to Ele/Jagdtiger. THAT is an incomplete faction.

USF still cannot into late game.

And while you argument stands for 1v1 were games can be one in the early to mid game, most the time in 2v2+ it is a late game victory and at this USF just sucks.

I mean i need Korean levels of micro to make USF work in team games (because not one USF unit and just take out an Axis unit with out some micro), and even then CoH 2 is no Starcraft when it comes to micro. I have never seen a battle cruiser spin around about 2 times before going the way you want it. I mean the faction would be of if i didn't have to fight the game every dam step to keep my glass cannons alive. On have my rilf, not thought there nads when told to. Losing units to clups. The list go on. And, becuase of all these issue faction like the USF with easy to kill glass cannons get fucked.

The point I am trying to make is that the faction and play stile you are talking about works until it doesn't or when late game hits over load sets in.

The weopan BAR itself is very good and has high dps, the problem is that rifles only get accuracy at vet3, which happens during the transition from mid to lategame and by that time opposing inf units have recived acc modifiers and small target sizes. I suggest switch rifle vet2 with vet3

The healing rate of the ambulance is also low, should be increased.

Put bars or lmgs on RE's. They have 1.2x accuracy at vet1. they will do very very well offensively