ML-20 and barraging the enemy base need a nerf.

Then how about this:

ML-20 cooldown starts when the barrage ends.
leFH coldown starts when the first shell is shot.

The problem with the ML-20 is how devastating it is per shot, not that it fires to fast. A 1 or 2 shots on a OKW HQ truck can easily wipe a shitload of infantry. The ML-20 just needs a damage or AoE reduction. Better yet, OKW needs an actual counter to it.

Replacing Valiant assault with a recon sweep and air assault with a ME-262 bombing strike would work fine for getting rid of howitzers.

The problem with the ML-20 is how devastating it is per shot, not that it fires to fast. A 1 or 2 shots on a OKW HQ truck can easily wipe a shitload of infantry. The ML-20 just needs a damage or AoE reduction. Better yet, OKW needs an actual counter to it.

Replacing Valiant assault with a recon sweep and air assault with a ME-262 bombing strike would work fine for getting rid of howitzers.

I've devastated 16 infantry models(11 cons and 5 shocks) with single rifle nade last night.
No AoE reduction will help if you blob or mass retreat, this is the punishment for bad play.

LeFH does exactly the same to allied infantry when it hits them.

The damage matters only against armor/structures. If you'll get a hit on infantry, it WILL die.

If you have clumped up infantry when the shell hits, well, maybe you shouldn't blob so much(i know its your fav playstyle, but the arty is intended hardcounter for it), maybe you shouldn't mass retreat?

Because there is nothing that prevents you from repairing your trucks between barrages.

On a related note-how about we made it so sturmtiger can't wipe any inf unless it directly hit the squad in the middle? I don't see how anyone complaining about ML-20 and B4 before would not be in support of such change.

Then how about this:

ML-20 cooldown starts when the barrage ends.
leFH coldown starts when the first shell is shot.

Similar doesn't equal same and its not always imbalance when allies happen to have better counterpart.
Protip: Not everything ubermenshen have built was superior.

I was referring to the "get a doctrine with recon and stuka" thing. So every time someone uses Howis i HAVE to go like that? What if i choose before my opponent?
Anyway, your proposal is not a permanently counter, its just a hotfix.
I am not arguing about the stats.

Only viable counter to it is CAS, since the rest is just too expensive

I've devastated 16 infantry models(11 cons and 5 shocks) with single rifle nade last night.
No AoE reduction will help if you blob or mass retreat, this is the punishment for bad play.

LeFH does exactly the same to allied infantry when it hits them.

The damage matters only against armor/structures. If you'll get a hit on infantry, it WILL die.

If you have clumped up infantry when the shell hits, well, maybe you shouldn't blob so much(i know its your fav playstyle, but the arty is intended hardcounter for it), maybe you shouldn't mass retreat?

Because there is nothing that prevents you from repairing your trucks between barrages.

On a related note-how about we made it so sturmtiger can't wipe any inf unless it directly hit the squad in the middle? I don't see how anyone complaining about ML-20 and B4 before would not be in support of such change.

Even if you have one squad near base it'll often get wiped. Repairing in between salvos is tough because of su-76. All on map arty/sturmtiger shouldn't be ingame imo

Even if you have one squad near base it'll often get wiped. Repairing in between salvos is tough because of su-76. All on map arty/sturmtiger shouldn't be ingame imo

Where are your puppchens if SU-76 is giving you trouble?
Why don't you have JP4 and instead have exposed to SU-76 truck?

Also, if there weren't any arty/sturmtiger-like units, then support weapon spams would be the one and only meta as you would have nothing to punish it.

I've devastated 16 infantry models(11 cons and 5 shocks) with single rifle nade last night.
No AoE reduction will help if you blob or mass retreat, this is the punishment for bad play.

LeFH does exactly the same to allied infantry when it hits them.

The damage matters only against armor/structures. If you'll get a hit on infantry, it WILL die.

If you have clumped up infantry when the shell hits, well, maybe you shouldn't blob so much(i know its your fav playstyle, but the arty is intended hardcounter for it), maybe you shouldn't mass retreat?

Because there is nothing that prevents you from repairing your trucks between barrages.

On a related note-how about we made it so sturmtiger can't wipe any inf unless it directly hit the squad in the middle? I don't see how anyone complaining about ML-20 and B4 before would not be in support of such change.

The ML-20 and B4 don't cost 160 fuel while being limited to one. The LefH also has a much smaller kill radius on it's explosion than the ML-20 does. Like I said; just reduce the damage on the ML-20 to something reasonable like 200 and we would be fine. Also regardless of what change we make to it OKW NEEDS a counter to it.

I don't blob either, but w/e I assume your to lazy to look through any of my replays.

Oh yea, because you spam all these B4s and ML-20s, so it matters a lot that you can get more then 1.
600 mp is basically free after all.

That "much smaller" leFH kill radius still warrants squad wipes when unleashed on retreating to base squads, especially on maps like agno or langers or kholodny.

ML-20 isn't op, it could stay how it is now IF they would deny to shoot into base sector (same for leFH in my opinion).

New "base Shooting" meta is really annoying.

I wish you could upgrade PzIIs with the Elite Armor PzCommander to sneak them into your enemy's base and drop the arty

I wish you could upgrade PzIIs with the Elite Armor PzCommander to sneak them into your enemy's base and drop the arty

You can't?
Like what, did Relic forget Luchs was a tank?

New "base Shooting" meta is really annoying.

Its not really new.

It existed in coh1 and in coh2 before howis were made useless.

You can't?
Like what, did Relic forget Luchs was a tank?

It only works for tanks that can upgrade to a pintle mounted MG42 (PIV, Panther and KT)

If it worked for PzIIs ...

ml 20 reduced damage and aor,both ml 2o and lefh can't be build in base,cost fuel like 60 or 80 and have longer cooldown

ml 20 reduced damage and aor,both ml 2o and lefh can't be build in base,cost fuel like 60 or 80 and have longer cooldown

This is a pretty huge nerf for the Soviets without as large a nerf to the Germans. If you did this artillery should not be destroyable by a single off map hit (aka stuka dive bomb).

The on-map artillery is good right now, but shelling bases is annoying. We might consider reducing number of shells by one or two and increasing cool down a bit. Cool downs are very short right now. Honestly though I have no sympathy for OKW. If you build your trucks far forward and mass retreat frequently, guess what, allies now have a counter to that. This is especially true in team games.

Played against howitzers as OKW in a long 3v3 game. Ultimately I was able to bleed them of MP by using Stuka. Since he invested heavily in static units and lightly armored SU76's to protect the guns, I invested heavily in Stukas. They gained vet quickly from weapon teams and fired rapidly so I never was in danger of getting them destroyed. When they got range extensions I was able to hit the actual guns and at that point the game was over.

cmon the ML20 is easy to counter with Ostheer.

But yeah I think 8-10 shells per barrage is too much it should be max. 6-8 shells.

But yeah Relic, lets nerf things and then buff them to the top after few months... thats how balancing works

The problem with heavy artillery in this game is that it's just inherently flawed as a concept.

If your opponent picks a commander than counters your artillery, then your commander is nullified and you're at a disadvantage.

If your opponent picks a commander with artillery while you have none and no counter, then you're at a disadvantage.

If you both pick commanders with artillery and nobody has a two-click counter then, well, that's not too bad. Personally I don't mind a game which revolves around each sides artillery because that makes sense from a realism perspective. The strategic role of artillery is to soften defenses and force your enemy to go on the offensive.

The problem with the CoH2 commanders is that there's suddenly so many commander choices which all very linear and leave no room for reaction beyond the initial choice. In vCoH the more limited and flexible selection of doctrines meant that Relic could ensure that no matter what your opponent went for, you wouldn't be left totally helpless due to your own doctrine choice. Sure there were matchups where some doctrines had the advantage, but it was never something drastic like your enemy having overwhelming artillery while you were left with no counter or counterpart, or your enemy being able to completely nullify part of your doctrine selection without any counterplay.

The only way to emulate that would be to make certain aspects of the game which counter eachother and are also very powerful stock, unlockable through tech. Say you want an ML-20, then you go to your HQ and research it for some fuel and manpower. Now your enemy should have their own heavy artillery also researchable in their HQ, so they aren't left behind. And the same would have to be done for nuke abilities that could easily one-shot them, though personally I think those abilities are pretty dumb and should be reworked into something that's less drastically all-or-nothing.

From a gameplay perspective, things with higher RoF and lower damage per shot are almost always more balanced than things with huge alpha and low RoF, assuming the same DPS. Nobody enjoys being one-shot with no opportunity for them to fight back, and running for your life doesn't count as "fighting back."

Hrm...

What if we made howitzers in general do much less damage over a wider area, and gave them a constant, slower stream of fire instead of these nuclear barrages they use right now?

This is a pretty huge nerf for the Soviets without as large a nerf to the Germans. If you did this artillery should not be destroyable by a single off map hit (aka stuka dive bomb).

The on-map artillery is good right now, but shelling bases is annoying. We might consider reducing number of shells by one or two and increasing cool down a bit. Cool downs are very short right now. Honestly though I have no sympathy for OKW. If you build your trucks far forward and mass retreat frequently, guess what, allies now have a counter to that. This is especially true in team games.

Played against howitzers as OKW in a long 3v3 game. Ultimately I was able to bleed them of MP by using Stuka. Since he invested heavily in static units and lightly armored SU76's to protect the guns, I invested heavily in Stukas. They gained vet quickly from weapon teams and fired rapidly so I never was in danger of getting them destroyed. When they got range extensions I was able to hit the actual guns and at that point the game was over.

Forward trucks being punished by artillery has been in the game since WFA release; that isn't what the problem is here. The problem is that OKW has zero counters to base artillery and the OKW can't build his trucks anywhere on most maps including his own base without still being shelled by the enemy.

It puts a hard cap on how long you have to win the game as OKW. If you don't win before howitzers become a factor you will be slowly pushed all the way off the map. In 3v3 and 4v4 the maps are so big a howitzer in your own base can't reach the enemies. On most 2v2 and 1v1 maps a howitzer can easily reach the entire map.

The ML-20 would be fine if:

A. OKW had a reliable counter (seriously I used scavenge artillery 3 times on 1 howitzer and it took like half health off and nothing else, that's 540 munitions right there)

B. It did less damage so it's AoE 1 shot radius wasn't so insanely huge

C. It could not be build in base sectors.

Iv suggested it before. Make the new OKW commanders come with counters and make Luftwaffe Ground Troops come with a ME-262 bombing strike instead of the Air Attack ability and ME-262 recon sweep instead of valiant assault.

Iv suggested it before. Make the new OKW commanders come with counters and make Luftwaffe Ground Troops come with a ME-262 bombing strike instead of the Air Attack ability and ME-262 recon sweep instead of valiant assault.

Soooo let me get this straight....You want to add a Stuka Bomb Drop to another faction...Correct?

Soooo let me get this straight....You want to add a Stuka Bomb Drop to another faction...Correct?

Yes, like the IL-2 anti tank run and bomb drop or the Stuka Dive Bomb (USF has equivalents they are just artillery based instead of plane based) . These things are all counters that exist to get rid of emplacements and static artillery. OKW is the only faction in the game that lacks one.