ML-20 and barraging the enemy base need a nerf.

I think this problem only really exists in 1v1 and 2v2 on the smaller maps. Also, as multiple people have stated, base barraging has been around since CoH1. This is not a new phenomenon. There are counters to it outside of the stuka dive bomb.

I think the only real problem is that they increased the number of shots per salvo a little too much when you add in the vet 1 perk. If they make any changes, they should look at the vet 1 perk first.

How about instead of clicking on the arty piece and ordering it to barrage, but instead infantry calls in the arty? like they have an ability to call in a salvo from the howitzer and the ability has a certain range like a grenade?

How about instead of clicking on the arty piece and ordering it to barrage, but instead infantry calls in the arty? like they have an ability to call in a salvo from the howitzer and the ability has a certain range like a grenade?

Could work like the artillery field officer, but I doubt Relic would introduce a new unit for all the other factions just to do it.

Could work like the artillery field officer, but I doubt Relic would introduce a new unit for all the other factions just to do it.

You wouldn't need a new unit. It could be an ability you add to all combat infantry.
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How about instead of clicking on the arty piece and ordering it to barrage, but instead infantry calls in the arty? like they have an ability to call in a salvo from the howitzer and the ability has a certain range like a grenade?

Would be nice for now as well as the future.

How about instead of clicking on the arty piece and ordering it to barrage, but instead infantry calls in the arty? like they have an ability to call in a salvo from the howitzer and the ability has a certain range like a grenade?

Great idea

How about instead of clicking on the arty piece and ordering it to barrage, but instead infantry calls in the arty? like they have an ability to call in a salvo from the howitzer and the ability has a certain range like a grenade?

+1 someone fwd this to relic with an urgent sticker on plz

The mechanics already exist too, (On the German artillery officer)

Honestly, I think the issue by and large is the 'cheesebombing' of the enemy base and OKW's lack of a natural counter. OKW trucks in a forward position is the PLAYER'S CHOICE. I have no sympathy if they choose to build it out of the HQ sector and it gets rekt by the ML-20. What you could do in vCoH is irrelevant. Like mentioned, we have a completely different doctrine system now. Let's talk about NOW instead of THEN hey?

Anyway here's my suggestion:

1)Make howitzers unable to target the enemy HQ sector. OKW players then face the dilemma of setting trucks in forward positions or safely in HQ sector. This removes the cheesebombing of enemy bases, because its just so damn cheap.

2)Give OKW some sort of off-map arty or something. Or alternatively give the Stuka zu Fuss a better chance of actually destroying the ML-20 itself. 100 fuel for OKW is no small and amount and even then the Stuka is going to have to get reasonably close to barrage the ML-20.

How about instead of clicking on the arty piece and ordering it to barrage, but instead infantry calls in the arty? like they have an ability to call in a salvo from the howitzer and the ability has a certain range like a grenade?

NDA!

It's quite obvious why OKW does not have 2click counter against ML-20.

Remind me, how many recon+stuka doctrines we had the the beggining for OST? Only Jaeger Armor I belive.

Point is, it's hard to make counter agasint XX soviets doctrines, when you have only 6.

It's not a problem with Ostheer cause they can adapt to any Soviets doctrines and vice versa.

With only 6 doctrines, OKW cannot adapt to all Soviets doctrines.

Solution? Wait for new commanders (easiest way without killing ML again + $$$)

It's quite obvious why OKW does not have 2click counter against ML-20.

Remind me, how many recon+stuka doctrines we had the the beggining for OST? Only Jaeger Armor I belive.

Point is, it's hard to make counter agasint XX soviets doctrines, when you have only 6.

It's not a problem with Ostheer cause they can adapt to any Soviets doctrines and vice versa.

With only 6 doctrines, OKW cannot adapt to all Soviets doctrines.

Solution? Wait for new commanders (easiest way without killing ML again + $$$)

This was discussed.

The way the doctrine system works now, if your opponent does not give any clear indications of commander choice until the ML-20 is built, and you have already chosen a doctrine without recon + Stuka, you are screwed. All the Soviet player has to do is turtle in their base, hold a VP and literally just barrage your base to death. It's not fun, it's not interesting and it definitely does not take skill.

Like I for one don't want to always choose Jaeger Armor(or whatever has the recon/stuka combo) if I see a ML-20 commander "just in case" they select it. It's BS.

It's quite obvious why OKW does not have 2click counter against ML-20.

Remind me, how many recon+stuka doctrines we had the the beggining for OST? Only Jaeger Armor I belive.

Point is, it's hard to make counter agasint XX soviets doctrines, when you have only 6.

It's not a problem with Ostheer cause they can adapt to any Soviets doctrines and vice versa.

With only 6 doctrines, OKW cannot adapt to all Soviets doctrines.

Solution? Wait for new commanders (easiest way without killing ML again + $$$)

Relic has already said they are fine with changing doctrines. Just make Luftwaffe Ground Troops actually useful by adding a howitzer counter.

This was discussed.

The way the doctrine system works now, if your opponent does not give any clear indications of commander choice until the ML-20 is built, and you have already chosen a doctrine without recon + Stuka, you are screwed. All the Soviet player has to do is turtle in their base, hold a VP and literally just barrage your base to death. It's not fun, it's not interesting and it definitely does not take skill.

Like I for one don't want to always choose Jaeger Armor(or whatever has the recon/stuka combo) if I see a ML-20 commander "just in case" they select it. It's BS.

I agree, it would mean choosing the same commander to counter all the time, in a 2v2 the chances for one player to have it is even higher. Kinda like the old ISU, elefant, stale meta.

How about the ML-20 would just rek bases a bit less or give considerable time to repair the bases between barrages. Remove chance to get one base down in one barrage, that is just .

I think if OKW doesn't place even one structure forward in a match, then the player is not playing to faction strengths properly, thus don't like the idea of being tied to base area completely.
The infantry blowing up in the base may not even be an issue atm, just have to take the ml-20 into account on the field and change retreating habits in that match.

if you think this is bad in 1v1 then you should see in team games like 3v3 4v4, shit is crazy, 3 Artys from one base firing into another, you got no chance with OKW, and ofcourse the katyushas

Forward trucks being punished by artillery has been in the game since WFA release; that isn't what the problem is here. The problem is that OKW has zero counters to base artillery and the OKW can't build his trucks anywhere on most maps including his own base without still being shelled by the enemy.

It puts a hard cap on how long you have to win the game as OKW. If you don't win before howitzers become a factor you will be slowly pushed all the way off the map. In 3v3 and 4v4 the maps are so big a howitzer in your own base can't reach the enemies. On most 2v2 and 1v1 maps a howitzer can easily reach the entire map.

The ML-20 would be fine if:

A. OKW had a reliable counter (seriously I used scavenge artillery 3 times on 1 howitzer and it took like half health off and nothing else, that's 540 munitions right there)

B. It did less damage so it's AoE 1 shot radius wasn't so insanely huge

C. It could not be build in base sectors.

Iv suggested it before. Make the new OKW commanders come with counters and make Luftwaffe Ground Troops come with a ME-262 bombing strike instead of the Air Attack ability and ME-262 recon sweep instead of valiant assault.

So you want a one shot button like Ost? That is a terrible idea. Here's the thing about OKW you have a number of advantages, but you are vulnerable to artillery. On larger maps he can only bombard base structures he knows about. Keep your base in places far enough away that he won't stumble upon them. Also place them behind structures. You can also use Stukas to wipe vet from howitzers. Use the Jagdpanzer and cloaked rakenten to push off the SU76's he has since he is heavily invested in T3 and will not have the resources for T4. If he ignores T3 fast tech to Luchs and punish him. Also when you see big guns you know he will be very static. He cannot have a mobile and entrenched army. Get Stukas and bleed mp. Been playing OKW vs Soviets now and Stukas are paying for themselves 10x over each game. I may lose FHQ's but I have time to bleed away mp through weapon teams and lightly armored vehicles. T3 offers amazing targets for Stuka because they provide quick vet and can be destroyed in a single volley. Once they are clear you can use even light vehicles to punish him or your amazing infantry. Getting vet 1 will allow you to sneak in close to his howitzer before you even fire. I think Howitzers are probably too strong now for both factions, but your ideas are always nerf Allies, buff Germans.

AOE is to make up for its insanely high scatter. If AOE goes down scatter has to as well.

ML-20's are not built in base sectors in larger games, so that has no effect.

Especially in team games don't rely on OKW to deal with arty as heavily. There are other players, and if you have no Ost then you need to organize a push to cover a stuka while it blows up the arty. He can only fire so quickly with a howitzer and it costs 600mp. Killing one is the equivalent of two minutes of mp gone.

Just as a reminder in team games against OKW for Allies there is a timer as well. If you don't win in the first 30 minutes your chances to win drop dramatically as better and better armor comes up and vet 5 begins to bleed you. So now Relic is trying to balance that with a MP bleed to keep Allies in game longer.

How about instead of clicking on the arty piece and ordering it to barrage, but instead infantry calls in the arty? like they have an ability to call in a salvo from the howitzer and the ability has a certain range like a grenade?

This wouldn't be accurate for Soviets and Germans as far as I know.

So you want a one shot button like Ost? That is a terrible idea. Here's the thing about OKW you have a number of advantages, but you are vulnerable to artillery. On larger maps he can only bombard base structures he knows about. Keep your base in places far enough away that he won't stumble upon them. Also place them behind structures. You can also use Stukas to wipe vet from howitzers. Use the Jagdpanzer and cloaked rakenten to push off the SU76's he has since he is heavily invested in T3 and will not have the resources for T4. If he ignores T3 fast tech to Luchs and punish him. Also when you see big guns you know he will be very static. He cannot have a mobile and entrenched army. Get Stukas and bleed mp. Been playing OKW vs Soviets now and Stukas are paying for themselves 10x over each game. I may lose FHQ's but I have time to bleed away mp through weapon teams and lightly armored vehicles. T3 offers amazing targets for Stuka because they provide quick vet and can be destroyed in a single volley. Once they are clear you can use even light vehicles to punish him or your amazing infantry. Getting vet 1 will allow you to sneak in close to his howitzer before you even fire. I think Howitzers are probably too strong now for both factions, but your ideas are always nerf Allies, buff Germans.

AOE is to make up for its insanely high scatter. If AOE goes down scatter has to as well.

ML-20's are not built in base sectors in larger games, so that has no effect.

Especially in team games don't rely on OKW to deal with arty as heavily. There are other players, and if you have no Ost then you need to organize a push to cover a stuka while it blows up the arty. He can only fire so quickly with a howitzer and it costs 600mp. Killing one is the equivalent of two minutes of mp gone.

Just as a reminder in team games against OKW for Allies there is a timer as well. If you don't win in the first 30 minutes your chances to win drop dramatically as better and better armor comes up and vet 5 begins to bleed you. So now Relic is trying to balance that with a MP bleed to keep Allies in game longer.

So OKW should remain almost unplayable versus Howitzer spammers in 1's and 2's because people in 3's and 4's have a hard time against OKW late game? What kind of logic is that?

What "advantages" does OKW still have over say Soviets (the biggest users of artillery)? I know each faction has it's own strengths but using Vet 5 or quicker access to tanks (while not being to make 50% as many as your enemy) to justify OKW being raped by the ML-20 is insane.

You know the LefH and ML-20 have the same scatter right? And the LefH does 160 damage compared to the ML-20's 300. Both cost the same, and fire close to the same number of shells once the ML-20 hit's vet 1.

How is giving OKW a howitzer counter which every other faction in the entire game has wrong? And you know that getting a Stuka isn't easy as chips in 2's either right? Rushing a stuka means you will be out any serious vehicle support at all for a long ass time and to get it out in a reasonable amount of time it forces you to use conversion which places an even larger handi-cap on you.


Look dude; you have almost no games as OKW in 2v2. Stop trying to act like I'm a fan boy or on some Allies nerf crusade because I find it broken as hell that I can play perfectly in a 2v2 and then get rewarded for my efforts by all my trucks being blown up without there being anything I can to stop it.

and lol "sneak" into his howitzer? yeah that's what I already do except 90% of the time it doesn't work because OKW has no pin point artillery that can be used on base sectors

The ML-20 and B4 don't cost 160 fuel while being limited to one. The LefH also has a much smaller kill radius on it's explosion than the ML-20 does. Like I said; just reduce the damage on the ML-20 to something reasonable like 200 and we would be fine. Also regardless of what change we make to it OKW NEEDS a counter to it.

I don't blob either, but w/e I assume your to lazy to look through any of my replays.

Don't go lying about your blobbing m8
http://www.twitch.tv/lenny12346/v/4260599

So OKW should remain almost unplayable versus Howitzer spammers in 1's and 2's because people in 3's and 4's have a hard time against OKW late game? What kind of logic is that?

What "advantages" does OKW still have over say Soviets (the biggest users of artillery)? I know each faction has it's own strengths but using Vet 5 or quicker access to tanks (while not being to make 50% as many as your enemy) to justify OKW being raped by the ML-20 is insane.

You know the LefH and ML-20 have the same scatter right? And the LefH does 160 damage compared to the ML-20's 300. Both cost the same, and fire close to the same number of shells once the ML-20 hit's vet 1.

How is giving OKW a howitzer counter which every other faction in the entire game has wrong? And you know that getting a Stuka isn't easy as chips in 2's either right? Rushing a stuka means you will be out any serious vehicle support at all for a long ass time and to get it out in a reasonable amount of time it forces you to use conversion which places an even larger handi-cap on you.


Look dude; you have almost no games as OKW in 2v2. Stop trying to act like I'm a fan boy or on some Allies nerf crusade because I find it broken as hell that I can play perfectly in a 2v2 and then get rewarded for my efforts by all my trucks being blown up without there being anything I can to stop it.

and lol "sneak" into his howitzer? yeah that's what I already do except 90% of the time it doesn't work because OKW has no pin point artillery that can be used on base sectors

Ahh yes, using my playercard as a weapon. I will note I have, shall I say, quite a bit of experience with Germans. You seem to think that 2v2 is so disconnected from 3v3 and 4v4 and to some degree my 2v2 experience, that I could not possibly understand your arguments.

What you were asking for is actually a one hit kill button. No faction should have regular access to these, so yes I don't want to see OKW get those. As a reminder OKW has access to the best stock inf in the game, the best call in inf, the best tanks, the best on map mobile arty, the best base construction, and the hardest and most diverse counters, besides having the fastest tanks, and the deepest vet. Truly OKW is weak to some Soviet play, but its not like playing Soviet guarantees you can beat OKW.

As a reminder about the Stuka, since you did not read my post, if your opponent invests heavily in Howitzers, then he is not going to supply his army with mobile tanks and assault guns, he has to pick some things to get them. In contrast, your ally can then get mobile tank units to cover your stuka's, or you can invest in some of the most cost effective AT in the game, including rakentens which can cloak natively now. Also the Stuka is extremely accurate, and with proper support it can hit base sectors. Use the map, smoke, and your teammate to get in range of the bigger guns. Also you get and IR HT to see through FoW now for 0 fuel. OKW is purposely weak to artillery, it has to try to draw the Allies into combat where it can win unit for unit.

Indeed the LefH and the ML20 are very similar to some degree, but the ML20 packs far more punch. However, both types of arty are given more shells to help compensate because no shell is likely to hit a target. If we reduce shell number the scatter needs to come down on both. Not really sure how you thought I was just saying the ML20 needs this. If you want to make them more about hitting a point then you need to allow them to do so. Another option is to prevent Stuka dive bomb from clearing out the ML20 and then nerf it. Currently it has to do serious damage because at 12 cps the German player can just take it completely off the field.

As for the "sneaking" one Luchs can clear off a gun quite quickly and getting in close brings other advantages than off maps. I don't mean for you to use off maps to win the game you have tools to deal with things other than call in a bombing strike from the sun. A luchs close to his base gives valuable intel and lets you decide when to make a critical push. Once the guns is down he has two options, invest in AT to help hold the line immediately and forsake getting a gun. Or reinvest in a big gun and go light on the line again, making him vulnerable to pushes. Killing the artillery is nice, but the objective of a game is vp's so getting those ticked down with artillery firing is fine.

I am not calling you a fan boy, but your posts have almost always been about buffing OKW units. Your experience with other factions is limited, and your posts often suggest you don't understand how basic Allied units function in a well balanced army. You are often at the losing end of discussions because you take balance personally and don't reflect on the satisfaction of having a game balanced so all factions are fun to play throughout the game.