Early game for Ost

@op spot on analysis. The trouble is both ost and soviet teching were forcibly delayed to extend early game but USF/OKW teching doesn't take that into account. Both ost and soviet teching should be sped up or USF/OKW teching slowed down. Plus neither USF nor OKW teching requires a builder unit so both ost/sov have less field and presence during teching.

Here's my contribution to the ost/USF matchup early game: starting mp is 500 for all factions but since RE are so cheap (160) and ost have to build t1 immediately that leaves both factions with immediate starting mp of 340 (USF) and 220 (ost). That 120 mp difference means ost both ost and USF build the first 3 units (ost cost 240 and USF cost 280) together. This plus 20s build time for t1 ensures USF dominance in the first engagement (assuming equal skill) and can snowball that in later engagements for some time. That plus early pressure on ost to immediately tech up (and lose 340mp for building+bp) due to light vehicle pressure is the issue.

I think another issue is that as ost you don't have good tools for counterattacking in mid game, esp if USF goes lt. Their weakness should be lack of AT but the 222 doesn't do a good job as its too fragile. I think it should have same stats and price to m20 or a sight increase.

I think we need Pz-III and Pz-I commanders with early game support for Ost instead of all late game oriented commanders.

This, I have stressed this myself before. Get a panzer III commander ready and up for every Ostheer player. Would solve a lot.

Perhaps it can be made just as durable (in staying alive potential) as let's say an su 76, but give it the shorter barreled 50 mm or longer barreled 37mm gun, so it won't be a gg easy mode tank to go for right at the star, but can support the infantry. It will of course be vulnerable to bazookas!

edit: wrong thread, correct post below

This, I have stressed this myself before. Get a panzer III commander ready and up for every Ostheer player. Would solve a lot.

Perhaps it can be made just as durable (in staying alive potential) as let's say an su 76, but give it the shorter barreled 50 mm or longer barreled 37mm gun, so it won't be a gg easy mode tank to go for right at the star, but can support the infantry. It will of course be vulnerable to bazookas!

Lol I keep imagining the pz3 having the same lines as the hotchkiss from coh1. It'd be epic. Maybe use the ostruppen voice actor.

The game is in a balanced state.

USF however has an unfair advantage at early and late game, starting with their baseline inf which have 50% higher DPS and survivability, and ending the game with their efficient, cheap TD.

They are designed in a way that you can win the game in the first 3 minutes, which is a major design flaw.


And good luck with double MG42 starting BO in a 1vs1 match

The game is in a balanced state.

USF however has an unfair advantage at early and late game, starting with their baseline inf which have 50% higher DPS and survivability, and ending the game with their efficient, cheap TD.

They are designed in a way that you can win the game in the first 3 minutes, which is a major design flaw.


And good luck with double MG42 starting BO in a 1vs1 match

The problem isn't so much USF OP, but more osts incapabilties to evenly fight usf early game infantry and super early light vehicles. Mostly due to teching prices. 4:50 minute m20s are virtually uncounterable until mobile AT shows up which doesn't happen for several minutes followed by 10-12 minute shermans while ost hasn't even built t3 yet. First 15-20 minutes ost desperately tries to play catchup because teching is absurdly overpriced relative to USF which doesn't have to build any structures pays less for teching AND gets free squads upon teching while they're baseline infantry is better. Ost is more of a combined arms army but the teching really gets in the way of you building that army up when you really need it. Plus IMO ost gets hurt the hardest out of any faction when they lose squads and I think they have the most fragile infantry in the game. Couple that with USFs extreme aggressive nature which leads to RNG being able to fuck you over more than usual sometimes.

Okw can handle it a bit better due to their squads being more durable and more cost effective, unlike ost that requires you to have more of a mixture of units to succeed.

Of course its given that both players are equal in skill and this isn't 4v4.

Osts goal at the moment vs USF is just to stall untill perhaps t2 while keeping a grip on the fuel, being overly aggressive as ost just gets you fucked up.

Buffing OST will break the SU faction.

Buffing OST will break the SU faction.

Rubbish,soviets are the strongest faction the game.They don't even need to tech these days,just stall for is-2 with zis..maybe occasionally get katyushas.PTRS bullshit,120 mm iwipe,is-2 iwin....lol...'break' soviets..Don't make me laugh.

I don't think it's as much Ost being weak early game as it USF being broken early game due to Free squads from tech and M20. Soviets are really strong against both Ost and OKW as well but for completely different reasons, Soviets have their own issues of overperforming units (Guards, Molotovs thrown during supression) but buffing Ost early game in favour of US is the wrong way to go about it, because that's just going to break even more stuff. OKW could do with the early game USF nerfs too.

The worst offender is the the M20. It just comes out way too soon for Wehrmacht/OKW and Paks and 222 don't even really counter it. 222 just takes way too long in which you'll get baited into a M6 mine or have to deal with the Bazooka crew, and the M20 is just too fast and with a small target size that the Pak isn't reliable enough. I think removing the Armoured Skirts upgrade entirely would be a nice change, meaning Grens and MG's can softly deal with it in the same way of an M3 or 222.

US also getting "Free" squads with tech is also very odd given that Riflemen are already so dominant. The Captain and Majors are fine because they don't really do much, but the Lieutenant is even more powerful than a regular Rifle Squad. Replacing the Major and Lieutenant squads would be a great change. Why does the cheapest tech give you the best officer when the most expensive gives you the worst?

That being said, Ostheer and OKW late game is still rediculous compared to USF late game, really needs to be more balanced and fair over all. Every faction should have equal chances of winning at any stage in the game. And Vet5 or Tigers in their current form is always going to prevent that.

That being said, Ostheer and OKW late game is still rediculous compared to USF late game, really needs to be more balanced and fair over all. Every faction should have equal chances of winning at any stage in the game. And Vet5 or Tigers in their current form is always going to prevent that.

Tigers?really?Its fodder for is-2,jackson and skillplane currently.Tank is a joke..glorified pz 4.

Tigers?really?Its fodder for is-2,jackson and skillplane currently.Tank is a joke..glorified pz 4.

Yes, really. His post makes complete sense to me. "If you don't bleed early game and don't lost map control as Ostheer" (this condition is very very important and kinda hard to accomplish at the current state, at least for me mostly because of "free" units), you are gonna have a PAK-WALL, at least a StuG E and one tiger late game which can easily deal with anything USF can throw at you.

PAK-WALL is also very effective versus IS2s, just need good placement so they don't get ass raped by shocks and incendiary barrage.

Bottom line, late game is not a problem as Ostheer "if you survive early and mid game". That's the problem.

Ostheer has weaker late game than okw and roughly the same as soviets. Soviets have best late game in game if you only build t2 straight to dual is2, IMO best strat in the game, on the level of tiger ace even. You can get your first is2 at like 17 minute mark and the second one in like 5 minutes or less depending on ur map control because you float fuel all game because soviets dont need to tech up for shit. Dual is2>the world. Its my favorite soviet strat because its stupidly easy. Thats how I stay top 20 as soviet 2v2.

Dual is2s allow them to trade extremely efficiently against any threat because the high armor and good speed means high survivability. Almost never lose an is2, I'd even call it better than the king tiger solely due to how cost effective the is2 is. Only thing the king tiger has is better gun but worse everything else. I can get 2 is2s on the field before I even see a king. Despite the shit accuracy, its still an RNG wipe machine. May not hit as accurately as a tiger, but it sure as hell wipes more often and is less afraid of engaging a pak or racketenwerfer head on.

Point is, german late game advantage isn't even really a thing for ostheer they just get to operate more freely because they've already gotten past their teching that gimps them stupidly hard, Okw is the only one with the superior late game generally. Allied early game advantage? That's definitely real for both factions.

Rubbish,soviets are the strongest faction the game.They don't even need to tech these days,just stall for is-2 with zis..maybe occasionally get katyushas.PTRS bullshit,120 mm iwipe,is-2 iwin....lol...'break' soviets..Don't make me laugh.

Agree. Conscript spam is ridiculous these day, especially they got convenient green cover with those gay sandbags/figHing positions(whatever name they have I forget)

Ive been playing exclusive Ost 1s and 2s recently and having tried so many strats. The only one that consistently has any weight is heavy t 1+2 into Stug E.

Its the manpower saving of Stug E that makes them so good. So you can back them with plenty of squads and paks. They are cheap so vet up quick and have target weak point, which combined with paks is lethal against counter mediums.

Theres no other way to command most of the map and be able to punish inf and vehicles early as Werh.

Id say Stug E pen could go down slightly. But Ost needs some other buff, like cheaper MP tecking.

a defensive faction needs to utilize the battlefield as a force multiplier.

it's maps maps maps.

to this point, i'd like to argue that with coh1, balance was arguably "better" due to the literature available, especially map specific guides, which are sorely lacking in this iteration. even simply having the discussions with LEMON and Lenny on strategy, gives the entire faction more of fighting chance.

the other option would be to give them a shock unit, something like the OKW sturmpios, something to give the wehr more tempo, force early routs and break out of base pins.

I still believe the early game problems is still the m20 . it can appear before its counters even arrive. simply swap the m20 and the stuart and the situation is fixed.

I still believe the early game problems is still the m20 . it can appear before its counters even arrive. simply swap the m20 and the stuart and the situation is fixed.

Fixed as in you'll never see any of them again?
Not sure if that is what I would call "fixed".

I still believe the early game problems is still the m20 . it can appear before its counters even arrive. simply swap the m20 and the stuart and the situation is fixed.

Yup because the MP teching cost between ost and usf. One faction needs 200+120MP to tech up. Another faction needs 200 MP to tech up and gains a free powerful unit. M20 comes out faster and dont be afraid of 222. They have bazooka crew...

Fixed as in you'll never see any of them again?
Not sure if that is what I would call "fixed".

What do you mean not be seen again? it would greatly diversify the usf tech tree by adding AI into the captain tree and AT into the lt tree without having to worry about the m20 having to much impact.

The only other alternative is to nerf the armour of the m20 into the ground. Also their is no good reason for the usf to have an unit on the field that cannot be countered.