Early game for Ost

Im more afraid of AA Truck than M20. You can faust M20 and finish it with MG.

Fausting AA is almost impossible and you need well placed MG with vet or Pak (to keep it at distance) and double pak for instakill.

At that point you should have a pak ready. and it greatly delays the usf tier 3. also fausting a m20 is just as impossible

Just wanted to point out Armored Skirts. Without it the M20 will die to Pios. It too is an upgrade that costs alot of Early Muni that also gets Countered by the 222 upgrade.

M20 coming early is problematic on open maps. Not so much on urban maps. And ever see it trying to kill something in Green cover? LOL

I'm not interested in map argument.Heard it too many times,nothing's changed,nothing will.Either make faction viable on all maps or don't bother with lame arguments .M20 can be anything it wants to be as long as it comes 1.5-2 mins later.
And free lieutenant needs to go.The anerican earlygame doesn't need it,its already overwhelming qualiitatively it doesn't need automatic quantitative superiority without any effort on top of that.
These 2 changes will fix problem.
Or u can keep m20 as it is but reduce ost teching.
But either way early free lieutenant with BAR and thompson has to go .Period.

Im more afraid of AA Truck than M20. You can faust M20 and finish it with MG.

Fausting AA is almost impossible and you need well placed MG with vet or Pak (to keep it at distance) and double pak for instakill.

Oh man I sure as hell wish you were right but you're not. No good player gets their m20 killed by a faust into mg fire.

First of all it requires a large amount of effort to get a gren squad close enough to a well microed m20 to actually faust it and then have an mg with vet 1 in a good position to pop incendiary rounds and then kill it. If an american player is bad enough to get fausted in a vetted mg arc and didn't pop smoke they are bad. m20s can kite all day long. I'm going to forget I even heard you say go dual pak to counter m20 because thats idiotic.

The pak is the closest counter to the m20 and requires a lot of early game manpower from the most manpower starved faction in the game vs the faction that gets a free lieutenant, doesn't have to build an structures, and gets to use more manpower to buy more riflemen quicker than ost can buy grenadier squads. Quantitative AND qualitative firepower? Plus the earliest light vehicles? Lol.

1 pak shot has a good chance to miss, m20 has smoke, gets a free bazooka crew to scare away 222, and .01 second engine repair. The only thing ost can do is stall vs an m20. No reliable kill method exists for several minutes. Only RNG methods that are dependent on USF skill and common sense.

WFA in general same to okw get light vehicles stupidly quickly. Wtf ever happened to extending early and mid-game relic? The thing they had to nerf teching long ago for ost and soviet cuz vehicles came to early. This is pretty much goes against that crap. If I was an idiot I'd call usf and okw pay to win, and tbh they were for a good while. But these issues are mostly due to relic incompetency and they do exist.

Oh man I sure as hell wish you were right but you're not. No good player gets their m20 killed by a faust into mg fire.

First of all it requires a large amount of effort to get a gren squad close enough to a well microed m20 to actually faust it and then have an mg with vet 1 in a good position to pop incendiary rounds and then kill it. If an american player is bad enough to get fausted in a vetted mg arc and didn't pop smoke they are bad. m20s can kite all day long. I'm going to forget I even heard you say go dual pak to counter m20 because thats idiotic.

The pak is the closest counter to the m20 and requires a lot of early game manpower from the most manpower starved faction in the game vs the faction that gets a free lieutenant, doesn't have to build an structures, and gets to use more manpower to buy more riflemen quicker than ost can buy grenadier squads. Quantitative AND qualitative firepower? Plus the earliest light vehicles? Lol.

My point was, it's easier to faust M20 than AA which is impossible cause of suppression .

And I never siad about dual pak vs M20... Read better.

Free lieutenant is the worst design feature with BAR.As long as it exists along with rifle dominance over grens,matchup will remain broken.Because this ensures usf have BOTH number advantage AND quality advantage..which is too much.
Early light vehicle and ost teching is clincher.2nd problem can be addressed with small teching adjustments easily.

First problem is fundamental,usf simply can't have free squad with BAR if rifles also completely outperform grens.Thats why the 'free' thing has to go.Lieutenant needs to cost a pair in time and price just like ost tech.

My point was, it's easier to faust M20 than AA which is impossible cause of suppression .

And I never siad about dual pak vs M20... Read better.

You worded it in a way that implied dual pak also works for m20. (Which it does, but isn't viable).
The AA halftrack is not as much of a problem because it comes out (slightly) later. Meaning it's a little easier to obtain a pak. AA halftrack is a bigger target and doesn't have smoke and has worse maneuverability all for greater firepower. Beating an AA halftrack via pak is more viable than doing the same to an m20 which imo has a much better time applying pressure.

Actually USF T2 is not an issue. Ostheer inf units just lack survivability, and for that reason you cant feild a pak on time due to the early MP bleed.

You can't capture points and gather resources when the units which are supposed to do that (Grens) have a 50% lower chance of survival than their counterparts.


This early game disadvantage is working as intended. Retarded design is retarded.

i honestly think that todays semifinals game (ostheer winning 3 games out of 4) pretty much shows that ost is perfectly fine.

Those folks have more than 2000 hours experience in this game. You can say they are able to beat their oppennets playing any factions. Balance discussions should be about making the game enjoyable for average players.

Right now playing as OST is a sadomasochistic sport.

Slightly off topic here:

I feel like rather a lot of imbalances/exploits exist between the vanilla and new factions tbh. I mean what's okw supposed to counter soviet sniper spam with? Or USF to do against wehr sniper? Or penal bomb vs okw structures? USF teching vs ost teching? (NOT counting doctrines here except soviet cause they're designed to use doctrines to cover stock weaknesses)

Ah, but of course. Ost wins 3/4 games and it's not because Ost is viable, it's because the winners were glorious pure masters of the Aryan race fighting the endless martyrdom struggle against the filthy OP spam Bolsheviks.

Lets ignore the 'oh they're really good and can win with any faction' argument being meaningless when you consider that these are only the best players fighting each other, because it's the later rounds of a tournament (Semi finals, in fact)

Ah, but of course. Ost wins 3/4 games and it's not because Ost is viable, it's because the winners were glorious pure masters of the Aryan race fighting the endless martyrdom struggle against the filthy OP spam Bolsheviks.
Lets ignore the 'oh they're really good and can win with any faction' argument being meaningless when you consider that these are only the best players fighting each other, because it's the later rounds of a tournament (Semi finals, in fact)

Sorry but goimg mechanized assault CAS every game doesnt mean the faction is perfectly fine.

Sorry but goimg mechanized assault CAS every game doesnt mean the faction is perfectly fine.

Too bad soviets also went gaurd motor pretty much every game though

Sorry but goimg mechanized assault CAS every game doesnt mean the faction is perfectly fine.

Being stale is not the same as being un-viable or UP. Such is the meta.

Lets ignore the 'oh they're really good and can win with any faction' argument being meaningless when you consider that these are only the best players fighting each other, because it's the later rounds of a tournament (Semi finals, in fact)

Ya you're right "OPsthher OP cuz tournament resluts prove so, let's close this thread."

Ya you're right "OPsthher OP cuz tournament resluts prove so, let's close this thread."

Yeah really its like saying USF was super OP last patch because they were and still are the best 1v1 faction.

"OMG HURRR, OMG POP IS 93 and 3, WHY THEY BUFF JACKSON USF OP!1!!!!1!!!!"

You're really trying every card in the book brachiariodos

Ya you're right "OPsthher OP cuz tournament resluts prove so, let's close this thread."

..because Ost is viable..

Do you spot the slight logical schism between the stance I took and the one you are attempting to discredit here?

Free lieutenant is the worst design feature with BAR.As long as it exists along with rifle dominance over grens,matchup will remain broken.Because this ensures usf have BOTH number advantage AND quality advantage..which is too much.
Early light vehicle and ost teching is clincher.2nd problem can be addressed with small teching adjustments easily.

First problem is fundamental,usf simply can't have free squad with BAR if rifles also completely outperform grens.Thats why the 'free' thing has to go.Lieutenant needs to cost a pair in time and price just like ost tech.

Agreed. Get rid of the Officer. Instead unlock BAR, Grenades and Zooks upon LT tech or Captain tech. We can then call it a day. I would say the LT and the Captain are at least worth 375MP and 55 Fuel. The Stuff Ostheer gets with teching. Also please allow upgrades in the field.

Agreed. Get rid of the Officer. Instead unlock BAR, Grenades and Zooks upon LT tech or Captain tech. We can then call it a day. I would say the LT and the Captain are at least worth 375MP and 55 Fuel. The Stuff Ostheer gets with teching. Also please allow upgrades in the field.

They aren't worth shit. You are paying to tech up, the upgraded squad is practically free.

They aren't worth shit. You are paying to tech up, the upgraded squad is practically free.

i think that's his point