Relic: No Japanese faction in CoH2

There's a big difference between units/characters in the game using those words and us (modern people talking on a forum) using those words. I'd say that the first is necessary for an accurate representation of the time period whereas the second is just people being rude.

That said, it is a bit odd to enforce what appears to be an Australian/New Zealand/Canadian/American thing on a global forum.

Hmmm I'm very surprised at the results of the poll! Nip is most definitely a racial slur and was used to garner hatred against the Japanese during world war II. Most western countries considered the Japanese to be small, weak and not suitable for soldiering. The British didn't think the Japanese could take Singapore and severely underestimated the Japanese soldiers capabilities. Going so far as to say that perhaps the Japanese could fight Chinese soldiers who were just as terrible as the Japanese but against the might of the British Empire they have no chance.... Well look how Singapore turned out. The United States were shocked when it came down to fighting island to island against nearly always fanatical enemies.

The earliest occurrence of the ethnic slur was probably in the Time magazine of 5 January 1942. The American, British, and Australian entry of the Pacific Ocean theatre of World War II heightened the use of racial slurs against the Japanese, such as jap and nip.

Generals in the south west pacific went so far as to say Nips are just vermin for exterminating.

In fact most of the terms that the Allies used were for the very purpose of instilling hatred of the enemy in the troops, including the term Kraut (a reference to sauerkraut or them sauerkraut eating Germans). It was particularly favoured by the Americans, the British preferred the term Jerry or sometimes Fritz.

That's what a little research has shown me.

Except your point would not wash, I think, if I wrote certain British Forces colloquial terms of the period wrt to people from the Middle East or thereabouts - which I am not going to.

The name of Guy Gibson's dog is central to this kind of argument, I think: it was the genuine code word for a successful attack on the German dams - it is pretty well all in, or all out. But if you retrospectively apply conventions which are 70 years on, you will get get mired in controversies which simply did not exist at the time .

That's a fair point. I think that it becomes a question of focus--a historical work should include the bad with the good, but it shouldn't go out of its way to shock or offend. So a work centered upon the British presence in the Middle East should deal with their various imperfections, casual racism included, as well as their very real heroism. But a work centered upon Europe shouldn't just throw that stuff in there without really dealing with it.

There is no logic behind JAP being a racial slur. It is a shortened form of JAPan(ese).



Calling JAP a racial slur is like calling GER a racial slur. It doesn't make sense.
"Racial" slurs, such as 'redneck' for someone from the south of USA, have some logical origin, something about being in the sun for too long and their neck becoming sunburnt.

Some people may take offense to the word JAP, and I can't stop them from doing so. But some people may also take offence to the word Tablecloth, and there isn't anything I can do about that either.

As an Australian, I have certainly heard JAP and NIP used derogatively. This does indeed stem from world war 2, and the fear of Japan so close to our borders, as much as anything the Japanese actually did or didn't do.

But I have also heard 'coon', a brand of cheese, used derogatively. IT should be no surprise that the company has not sought to rename its brand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon


tl;dr, get over it

Just going to say, when people think WWII, Its the Allies (United States, Briton, Russia) Versus the Axis (Germany, Japan, and Italy)

The Japanese are just as iconic and worthy of a fraction as the constantly remade Germans. The Japanese lasted a year longer than the Germans and had to be subdued by a atomic bomb. They were just as deadly as the Germans.

Atomic Bomb was throwed only because japanese diplomats at Moscow tryed to negociate peace with USSR and Americans wanted to stop the war before Stalin did. Noam Chomsky talk about it in many books (excuse my english)

Hmmm I'm very surprised at the results of the poll! Nip is most definitely a racial slur and was used to garner hatred against the Japanese during world war II. Most western countries considered the Japanese to be small, weak and not suitable for soldiering. The British didn't think the Japanese could take Singapore and severely underestimated the Japanese soldiers capabilities. Going so far as to say that perhaps the Japanese could fight Chinese soldiers who were just as terrible as the Japanese but against the might of the British Empire they have no chance.... Well look how Singapore turned out. The United States were shocked when it came down to fighting island to island against nearly always fanatical enemies.

The earliest occurrence of the ethnic slur was probably in the Time magazine of 5 January 1942. The American, British, and Australian entry of the Pacific Ocean theatre of World War II heightened the use of racial slurs against the Japanese, such as jap and nip.

Generals in the south west pacific went so far as to say Nips are just vermin for exterminating.

In fact most of the terms that the Allies used were for the very purpose of instilling hatred of the enemy in the troops, including the term Kraut (a reference to sauerkraut or them sauerkraut eating Germans). It was particularly favoured by the Americans, the British preferred the term Jerry or sometimes Fritz.

That's what a little research has shown me.

"Nip" seems a lot less ambiguous than "Jap." There were some positive uses of "Jap" before the war. According to wikipedia a road in Jefferson County Texas was called "Jap Road" in honor of the Mayumi brothers (who brought rice farming to the county.) This apparently was regarded as enough of a compliment that the Mayumi Bros' descendants resisted the efforts of Japanese-American groups to get the name changed. ASFAICT "Nip" never had a complimentary use.

Hmmm I'm very surprised at the results of the poll! Nip is most definitely a racial slur and was used to garner hatred against the Japanese during world war II. Most western countries considered the Japanese to be small, weak and not suitable for soldiering. The British didn't think the Japanese could take Singapore and severely underestimated the Japanese soldiers capabilities. Going so far as to say that perhaps the Japanese could fight Chinese soldiers who were just as terrible as the Japanese but against the might of the British Empire they have no chance.... Well look how Singapore turned out. The United States were shocked when it came down to fighting island to island against nearly always fanatical enemies.

The earliest occurrence of the ethnic slur was probably in the Time magazine of 5 January 1942. The American, British, and Australian entry of the Pacific Ocean theatre of World War II heightened the use of racial slurs against the Japanese, such as jap and nip.

Generals in the south west pacific went so far as to say Nips are just vermin for exterminating.

In fact most of the terms that the Allies used were for the very purpose of instilling hatred of the enemy in the troops, including the term Kraut (a reference to sauerkraut or them sauerkraut eating Germans). It was particularly favoured by the Americans, the British preferred the term Jerry or sometimes Fritz.

That's what a little research has shown me.

I would suggest, gently, that there is where internet research may fall up short.

I can think of a pejorative word that US troops probably used for the Japanese: happily, you have not mentioned it, but it starts with g .... That is without the longer worded descriptions, which you have properly also avoided.

I think the examples you do cite are highly subjective, but in fairness,so is a lot of of this. FWIW, "Nip", I think, comes primarily from the US side; 'Jap' is common to all Pacific forces; 'John Jap' is British in origin.

I would suggest, gently, that there is where internet research may fall up short.

I can think of a pejorative word that US troops probably used for the Japanese: happily, you have not mentioned it, but it starts with g .... That is without the longer worded descriptions, which you have properly also avoided.

I think the examples you do cite are highly subjective, but in fairness,so is a lot of of this. FWIW, "Nip", I think, comes primarily from the US side; 'Jap' is common to all Pacific forces; 'John Jap' is British in origin.

Well I did focus on the term Nip in my post, not so much Jap. Those were different times and the Allies and people in general back then were not so shall we say culturally aware as we are today. After all the US was still struggling with it's own civil right's issues (if anyone is interested there are quite a few interesting documentaries on the 761st Tank Battalion (would have been interesting to see them make an appearance in the Ardennes Assault expansion but I digress). That's why I was surprised by the poll results, Nip is most definitely associated with negative connotations.

The japs wouldnt be a good addition to the coh2 for several reasons: they were completly different from the four other factions (few combined arms, heavy usage of ambush taktiks, suicide attack, etc). The military focus was more on navy battles than on big armoured vehicle assaults(although I want to see the yamato cruisin around in the volga ). They were experts in jungle skirmisches, camoflaging in bushes or surprise attacks, but they would lack in tanks for european battlefields. I can imagine them being an excellent and fun-to-play-faction that I'd actually love to see in action but they dont fit into coh2.maybe in a fourth coh or a seperate multiplayer.

I dont think jap is racist. Some people might think its racist because its a bit sloppy probably overused. Its like "jude"(jew) in germany, many people think its racist but it actually depends on the context, could be said in a humiliating way or in a friendly/funny/normal/shortend/whatever way, the situation makes it racist.

'Japs', is considered derogatory and most definitely is a racial slur. At least in Australia anyway where it is, or was, commonly used as one.

Growing up in sunny California, it is considered on the level of the N word and other top tier racial slurs. This is one of the reasons Japan is abbreviated JPN instead of JAP.

I can't speak for the rest of the world but "Jap" is most certainly considered an ethnic slur in California. "Nip" would be too if anyone actually still used that word.

Edit: Shadowwada beat me to the punch.

To clarify: I have never seen "Japs", or "John Jap", or "Nips" as racial slurs. It is the equivalent of "Tommy/Tommies" or "Jerries".

"Japs" is short for Japanese; " Nips" is short for "Nipponese" (which is closer to the Western version of pronouncing 'Nihon' =Japan).

EDIT: there are instances, where names used 70 years ago may now be inappropriate. Although, in an historical context, how far do you extend censorship?

e.g. the name of Guy Gibson's dog.

IIRC, based on a Japanese friend I have, he said that Nips and Japs were racials slurs then and now. I'm not sure if it's really true but I would stay in the safe side and limit on using it. Then again, we have soldiers calling each other Ivan, Kraut, Rus etc etc.

Every country in the world has different slurs, and words vary in how offensive they are or if they are offensive at all. Jap could be offensive or not depending on context here. But Nip would always be offensive.

Easy, get rid of tanks combat, imply naval combat and islands hopping.

No more so called T70 crap. Their destroyers and subs were considered very advanced.
Microing Zeros and destroyers instead of tanks, great ideas for COH3.

I dont think jap is racist. Some people might think its racist because its a bit sloppy probably overused. Its like "jude"(jew) in germany, many people think its racist but it actually depends on the context, could be said in a humiliating way or in a friendly/funny/normal/shortend/whatever way, the situation makes it racist.

Wow, that was like the worst comparison ever... what are you trying to say? 'Jude/Jew' is just a term for a person of a certain religion, like "Christian". It has nothing to do with any abbreviations/slurs like "Jap".

The heaviest Japanese tank was basically a worse Sherman. It was also produced in less numbers than the KT.

It was also never used in combat, all Type 3 Chi-Nu were kept on the Japanese Mainland to counter Operation Downfall.

Easy, get rid of tanks combat, imply naval combat and islands hopping.

No more so called T70 crap. Their destroyers and subs were considered very advanced.
Microing Zeros and destroyers instead of tanks, great ideas for COH3.

CoH is focused on company level combat though, what you want is an entirely different game that would have more in common with Rise of Nations or Empire Earth style RTS.

Interesting discussion. I don't think either Nip (Nipponese) or Jap (Japanese) are derogatory in and of themselves (they are simply a slang abbreviation). The words became synonymous with such, due to the hatred and disdain the men fighting them, used the word in context with other words.

I'm sure that's why some here think it is and is not a derogatory form. Much of those who think such, have probably heard it used in such a context.

If I say "the Jap guy walked into a bar and ordered a drink", it's pretty innocent. Lazy, but innocent.

However, if I say "the f****** Jap, walked into a bar and ordered a drink, the dirty little rat b*******!" it has a completely different connotation.

Everything is a slur towards one thing or another these days. Doesn't matter what you say, some cunt is going to get offended.
In high school we would refer to the people from Pakistan as pakis. There is nothing racist about that word itself, it is simply a shortened form of Pakistani. However, we would still get in trouble for using that word. Jap, in my opinion, is no different.

Whether or not a word is being used in a derogatory way depends on context, not the word itself.

FFS, you think there are no difference, don't mean the Japanese think there are no difference.

But anything, in game, I don't care.

It's pretty fascinating to see how split the community is about this issue.

It isn't so much the word that is the issue but instead the history and imagery that word conjures up. The United States waged massive and extremely effective propaganda war aimed at dehumanizing the Japanese during WWII and in all those posters, movie reels, etc. the Japanese were referred to as either "Japs" or "Nips". The propaganda was so enduring that those originally neutral words became permanently associated with the derogatory and dehumanizing imagery of that era in countries that fought in the Pacific War.

When you say "Jap" to a person whose country was not exposed to that propaganda they might picture something like this:



But when you say "Jap" to an American you are conjuring up images and negativity like this:



While "Jap" may have been a neutral term at first it became a derogatory slur in the US and other countries that fought in the Pacific largely due to it's association with the dehumanizing propaganda of the era. A person not exposed to that shared cultural history would have a very different understanding of the word than one who was.