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russian armor

Where is USF air superiority?

16 Jan 2015, 18:36 PM
#41
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403

That and Open-top Tank Destroyers were not ideal for some of the urban fighting the U.S. did on their way into germany.

That and small streets preventing the old "Five Tanks for every one of my Panzers, but you always have 6" from working.
16 Jan 2015, 18:38 PM
#42
avatar of sneakking

Posts: 655

Permanently Banned
"Five Tanks for every one of my Panzers, but you always have 6"


I can't believe people still think this is true.
16 Jan 2015, 18:43 PM
#43
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637


That said, in the realm of actual scholarly literature, I have not come across about all that many people claiming US armor/AT was somehow impotent in the face of their German counterparts.


Last off topic post I promise. Leyawn the majority of my reads are based on books from Major publishers with little insight into actual Scholarly and reliable data. If you could PM some links to any you know of on the Internet I would appreciate it.
16 Jan 2015, 18:46 PM
#44
avatar of DasDoomTurtle

Posts: 438

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 17:35 PMNinjaWJ


you point out things that justify certain abilities and units in the game, and yet it sees only okay for Germans to have them and not USF and Soviets?


First off I was not justifying jack, just pointing out historical inaccuracy's of a someones post. Second, what grounds do you have to talk about axis in the first place? you have no idea how to play them as your player card is evidence enough. To comment on a post that has nothing to do with in game units rather its about history just to pencil push your "game unit agenda" is nothing more than an attempt to incint unrest and not construct a proper debate. If you wish to have a solid debate I would be glad to be apart, but if continue to push this kind of junk, I ask you to kindly refrain from taking part in game mechanic/implementation discussions for it obviously is not your field of expertise.
Sincerely,
Annoyed Programmer
16 Jan 2015, 19:00 PM
#45
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

edited by user
16 Jan 2015, 19:02 PM
#46
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053


The majority (2/3s+) of German tanks in the West were lost to fuel/parts shortages, and therefore abandonment rather than kinetic Allied action. That is a point the already quoted Niklas Zetterling nicely makes btw, and where Allied airpower came into its own. Its effect was not so much in the destruction of tanks themselves, but rather in interdiction, destruction of soft-skinned vehicles, etc. which were paramount to keeping actual armor going and supplied. The ordeal of Panzer Lehr in its move to Caen illustrates that German predicament nicely, from the beginning of the Normandy campaign the Germans could only really conduct operational road/rail movement by night lest they risked severe harassment.


Makes sense. German armor could only be stopped through indirect methods as mentioned. That doesnt exist in CoH2 because it would be super annoying for someone to deal with. I think before WFA release, OKW functioned in a manner that required a lot of work to keep up in the game? But that mechanic was removed and the advantages remained. :/

USF is very strong in 1v1 and 2v2, but they get weaker within team games where the enemy can hole up and amass armor (in which many people like playing big team games :/ ). USF was not designed for big team games where it most likely loses to common heavy armor...

I blame design once again, and it seems to me that USF was made without Ostheer in mind as well...

I dont see how any of it could be fixed as i expected better from a company that has many years of experience in the matter and had already designed 6 factions prior...
16 Jan 2015, 19:11 PM
#47
avatar of DasDoomTurtle

Posts: 438

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 19:00 PMNinjaWJ


i admit that you were referring to someone elses' post, but you have been very rude and blind yourself. i play axis too, but you too fucking lazy to check out more than jsut the main screen. what is with your elitism


No elitism here, All of your post can be taken and analyzed to show that you do not tend to post anything that is constructive or respectful. Your post above shows your inflaming tongue. Using explicit language does not provide you any credibility. As I said if you wish to debate in a civilized gentleman manner I am open; but, as your post above (i.e. the quote) you wont because you can not even respond to my original post in the manner it was presented.
16 Jan 2015, 20:27 PM
#48
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779



Makes sense. German armor could only be stopped through indirect methods as mentioned. That doesnt exist in CoH2 because it would be super annoying for someone to deal with. I think before WFA release, OKW functioned in a manner that required a lot of work to keep up in the game? But that mechanic was removed and the advantages remained. :/

USF is very strong in 1v1 and 2v2, but they get weaker within team games where the enemy can hole up and amass armor (in which many people like playing big team games :/ ). USF was not designed for big team games where it most likely loses to common heavy armor...

I blame design once again, and it seems to me that USF was made without Ostheer in mind as well...

I dont see how any of it could be fixed as i expected better from a company that has many years of experience in the matter and had already designed 6 factions prior...


Just like the Brits in COH1 was designed without Wehr in mind. <444>_<444>
16 Jan 2015, 20:50 PM
#49
avatar of sir muffin

Posts: 531

we have the p47 thunderbolt, which can't kill a tiger for 240 munitions

good job, USAF
16 Jan 2015, 21:15 PM
#50
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 18:24 PMJaigen


That doesn't change the fact that the luftwaffe was very active on the eastern front. even in 1944.

If by "active" you mean "some supply planes" then you are 100% correct.
16 Jan 2015, 21:38 PM
#51
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862

Because a) It would be boring and b) less tanks were knocked by airpower than claimed by the airforce. According to Niklas Zetterlings book Normady 1944 only about 7% of destroyed german tanks during the Normandy campaign (circa 1500 in total) can be said to have been knocked by airpower.

In Sledgehammer by Christopher Willbeck he explores the knocked Tigers during operation Goodwood. 13 were lost to airpower, 7 of them by high altitude carpet bombers before Goodwood began. Typhoons knocked 6 of them.

During the entire Operation goodwood the two airwings claimed some 390 knocked tanks. After the battle some 460 heavy German AFVs were standing knocked out on the battlefield, 300 were inspected. 10 had been knocked by airlaunched rockets. 3% of claimed became confirmed.

At Mortain the airforce of the allies claimed about 75 more kills than the germans had tanks.

Basically this myth about rockets from P-47s and Typhoons being the bane of German tankers is nothing more than a myth. AT-guns did the most of the damage both in the east and west.


There is your explanation, it doesn't make sense form a gameplay standpoint nor from an historical one.



While the rockets probably killed fewer tanks than claimed, that is the case for every service in the war, for both sides. It is certainly true that the German mobility suffered in good weather from air attacks, and their supply train, made up of trucks, rail, and horse, were quite vulnerable to air attack (as were infantry and lightly armored columns.)

Don't forget I mentioned horses. There were lots of horses. The vaunted, high tech, Wehrmacht supply chain was dependent on them.
16 Jan 2015, 21:42 PM
#52
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



1) German production levels of 1944 were no less than the previous years, in fact they increased.


This shows the strategic stupidity of going to war with the US. In 1944 Germany made 40,000 aircraft. So did the Soviets. The Brits made 28,000. The US made no less than 96,000, almost what all the rest did combined.



4) Obersoldaten represent the elite of the elite that were still alive. SS Nord had moved from Finland to the Western Front by end of 1944 (My grandfather had been with them). Sturmtiger did exist and Ostwind did as well.


Yet despite already being the most hardened and experienced troops to ever fight in any war for any army... they still have room to get 5 more levels of veterancy?

Osts existed. A whopping 40 of them were made. Same with Sturmtigers (10 produced).
16 Jan 2015, 22:46 PM
#53
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

That and Open-top Tank Destroyers were not ideal for some of the urban fighting the U.S. did on their way into germany.

The advantages and disadvantages of open-top aren't even represented anyway, so there is zero difference in-game. If they were, then open top would have increased LOS (or at least vehicle detection) but be vulnerable to suppression (basically button fire from any unit?), gunfire from above (although the game engine doesn't see height), and explosions ('gunner shocked' from HE weapons?).


I think before WFA release, OKW functioned in a manner that required a lot of work to keep up in the game? But that mechanic was removed and the advantages remained. :/

That is true, originally you had to set up your trucks in a chain, the first connected to your HQ and the last hopefully on your Fuel. Only sectors with a truck on them gained 100% resources (went up to 200% but I don't remember the specifics) while the rest gave 33%. Your easy-access Panthers and Obersoldaten existed to protect that thin line at all costs.


jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jan 2015, 21:15 PMKatitof
If by "active" you mean "some supply planes" then you are 100% correct.

What if I told you that Luftwaffe strength was at it's peak in 1944?
16 Jan 2015, 23:27 PM
#54
avatar of somenbjorn

Posts: 923


That is true, originally you had to set up your trucks in a chain, the first connected to your HQ and the last hopefully on your Fuel. Only sectors with a truck on them gained 100% resources (went up to 200% but I don't remember the specifics) while the rest gave 33%. Your easy-access Panthers and Obersoldaten existed to protect that thin line at all costs.


But but but, this sounds great! Was it balance or something else that made them remove that idea?

16 Jan 2015, 23:38 PM
#55
avatar of UGBEAR

Posts: 954

 I think the P47 rocket strike worth its price,please ask more non-doctrinal for allied (Jumbo,SU-100), not ask more payed commanders....(unless there's a Pershing in it)
17 Jan 2015, 00:18 AM
#56
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403



I can't believe people still think this is true.


Its from the same group of people who believe the Panther was the best tank of the war, Believe the russians founded sloped armor on accident and that German heavy tanks suffered from almost no engine/suspension problems.
17 Jan 2015, 00:45 AM
#57
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

But but but, this sounds great! Was it balance or something else that made them remove that idea?

I think it was because OKW's chances were extremely map dependent, moreso than any faction in CoH history. On some maps the first point you unlock is the fuel point, while on others it could be the third. I'm not sure, but there may even be a map or two where OKW wouldn't be able to reach the fuel at all. Sector size and layout also effected it, some maps you'd be limited to one little corner, while others you'd be able to expand all the way down one side and lock it out. OKW Itself was also different, Panzerschrecks were on Sturmpios, and the trucks came in a different order and gave different units. I don't remember specifics but for example, the Flak Truck was T1 and built Volksgrenadiers.

(Note: None of this information is breaking NDA, it was all available in the original public OKW stream before the redesign happened.)
17 Jan 2015, 02:10 AM
#58
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026

I can confirm that there was at least one map where OKW couldn't connect their fuel up. Even if they fixed all such maps it still forced OKW into a pretty restricted play stile where certain maps would always see them setting up bases in the same sectors.
17 Jan 2015, 02:33 AM
#59
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470



Then just focus on a) It wouldn't be fun. Skillplanes are currently boring as hell. Adding more will not help the situation. It is better to have the player micro units that click two buttons to counter a threat.


see, skill planes aren't necessarily bad, when they're actually skill planes. WiC has excellent examples of skill globals, including planes, including carpet bombing.
22 Jan 2015, 14:56 PM
#60
avatar of negativg

Posts: 24

For the history curious, here's some analysis on tank losses (Normandy):

http://lmharchive.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/18-Chapter-Ten1.pdf

Tl;DR: Initially most German losses were due to AP rounds (17pdr, 57mm) penetration, later almost half of German tanks were destroyed by their crews.
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