120mm Mortar M1943 - no counter, no weakness

What I want to say, this unit has no trade offs. It has high durability, high damage and is hard to counter.

It's also expensive and locks you into 1 of 3 possible commanders. None of them with the ever popular IS-2. "No trade offs" is quite the stretch.

No counter? Non doctrinal stuka wipe it with first salvo.

It's also expensive and locks you into 1 of 3 possible commanders. None of them with the ever popular IS-2. "No trade offs" is quite the stretch.

One of them is guards motor though, which has dual T34/85s which are just as good, if not better, than IS-2s.

Any Allies player: It's fine.

Yeah, I know. Next.

I personally think its fine, its a 400mp investment that can or cannot payoff, the one shot ability it has is a issue that all mortars have. It's no more op than obers and stukas which every one think is fine for some reason

Any topic has some Obersoldaten post. What do Obersoldaten have to do with On Map Artillery units? Some have really an Obersoldaten obsession.

How is its high cost not a trade-off? Also, stop the "6 man squads are so much more durable" bullshit already. Axis has higher DPS to compensate for that.

Yes, the 120mm is strong. But it's absolutely not OP considering its price.

Don't compare on map artillery units with fighting units, those higher dps rules have no effect on that.
LeIG/Pack Howitzer cost more, perform worse and can't retreat and are decrewed when one entity/two entites are left.
If the 120mm is fine in your eyes, PackHowitzer/LeIG 18 are not.

Edit: compared to other arty units in the game, I would say it is fine. The fact that it is much better than the OKW equivalent is because the OKW one is terrible for its cost. It is also a bit better than the PAKhowitzer, but only because that thing is bugged and costs twice as much to reinforce.

It's better because it can retreat, has higher damage, can wipe reliably and still be operated with one entity and it comes with a lower price as a call in, means you don't have to decide for the tech.
Again if the 120mm mortar is fine LeIG/Pack Howitzer need some huge buffs.
Yet again I wouldn't like that, because full health one shot wipes would occur even more often.

It's also expensive and locks you into 1 of 3 possible commanders. None of them with the ever popular IS-2. "No trade offs" is quite the stretch.

Because Guard Motor Rifle is such a bad doctrine . Every second game at least somebody uses that doctrine.

I have no idea why the 120 can retreat with 1 man, that's my only major complaint against it. It is out of line with every other weapon team in the game (bar MGs which all can retreat with 1 man).

This. Inconsistent behaviour which propels the unit to "somewhat OP" status.

I agree that this unit is not functioning well, but I don't call it OP. Here is the thing:

it's one of the earliest solutions allied players have when facing OKW Flak base rush + Volksblob. One lucky shot and he has to retreat his whole blob, or you can simply start barraging his base and with some RNG GOD favor wipe his Sturmpios. You can also guard them with other doctrinal units.
So against the TROLOLO OKW play style, this unit is kinda essential. It also makes a distinctive voice when firing, its ROF is very low at the start of barrage (so you can move your units) and the accuracy is terrible. It is expensive.

BUT, against non blobbing players (either OKW or Ostheer) this unit is way too powerful. Specially in smaller maps, which you can simply barrage from your base and gain vet. With the new cover system, one lucky shot and you lose you whole goddamn squad. It also easily kills weapon teams and PAKs. And IMO, losing vetted squads is more punishing for non blobbing players.

Please do not compare them to Ubersoldaten. The fact that LMG34 (not the actual ubers) are over performing has nothing to do with this unit.

Conclusion: This unit is a viable counter versus OKW flak rush, static targets and support weapons. It is devastating for support heavy builds and denies huge areas specially in small maps. A well placed 120mm, backed up by a maxim and cons squad deal heavy MP loss to the enemy. Being a 6 man squad means you can easily retreat.


TL,DR: It's a good counter against OKW TOLOLOLO Flak base rush and blob, although it's very punishing for non blobbing builds. Too much wipes, great range, strong vet 1 ability and 1 man retreat. It needs changes, not necessarily nerfs. Bad OKW design does not make this unit "fine"

For 400 manpower you expect a reasonable upgrade to the smaller version. And when the small version is not to be already pointless, then the 400 manpower version has to be rather powerful to justify the cost. So if it was really considered as too powerful, then a nerf would only make sense when the 120mm Mortar in the same time is also made cheaper. Readjusting to the bottom too much could on the other hand make it too similar to the small version.

In comparison to leIG it is overpowered, but what does that even mean? The leIG doesn't perform adequately for its price and needs to be readjusted.

It's a rng machine. I'd welcome more accuracy, higher rate of fire - less damage change. Or something similar.

I had 120 mortar wining games for me and being 400 mp waste. Also is not a good unit on all maps. Sometimes it's better to go for a regular one.

i use this unit every game i can. everyone says it's OP as fuck. but i rarely get more than 6 kills on it. it's stupid RNG

i use this unit every game i can. everyone says it's OP as fuck. but i rarely get more than 6 kills on it. it's stupid RNG

6 kills isnt that bad. Its like 3 kills with cons as the mortar is almost as 2 cons in value. I hate it when I only get 1 or 2 kills with Cons but 3 is ok.

^ not sure if serious. 99% that is not.

It's a rng machine. I'd welcome more accuracy, higher rate of fire - less damage change. Or something similar.

I had 120 mortar wining games for me and being 400 mp waste. Also is not a good unit on all maps. Sometimes it's better to go for a regular one.

Pretty much sums up my experience with it. It's one of those units with very inconsistant performance.

Imo the precision shot is op though.

Don't compare on map artillery units with fighting units, those higher dps rules have no effect on that.
LeIG/Pack Howitzer cost more, perform worse and can't retreat and are decrewed when one entity/two entites are left.

How do they not have an effect on that? It's not that hard to close in on a Soviet mortar with regular OKW/Wehr units.

If the 120mm is fine in your eyes, PackHowitzer/LeIG 18 are not.

Spot on. I don't think the pack howitzer or the LeIG 18 are fine. They need a buff. But the 120mm does not need a nerf.

You can quickly reposition

No you can't. It takes forever to setup/run. Also, since squad is bunching and can be wiped with one grenade, and since german infantry have stronger dps this unit isn't really durable.

the pack howitzer is meh until vet 2. the leig is shit.

It's a rng machine. I'd welcome more accuracy, higher rate of fire - less damage change. Or something similar.

I had 120 mortar wining games for me and being 400 mp waste. Also is not a good unit on all maps. Sometimes it's better to go for a regular one.

This. Single shots can win games with lucky wipes. But can play for 5-10 minutes with few to no kills. Relic loves RNG and this unit is a good example of that, as well as a larger problem with this game.