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russian armor

soviet t3 and t4 cost issues....

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8 Jan 2015, 23:14 PM
#21
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


It will take about good 3 years for the game to be fully balanced.

Assuming no new factions will be added.
I'd like to see something more and for coh2 to really become best WW2 platform around, but if it happens it'll be another year of same problems.
9 Jan 2015, 00:49 AM
#22
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2015, 20:14 PMTNrg
Let's compare Soviet and OKW tech costs:

Soviet T1 or T2: 50 fuel

Soviet T3 or T4: 120 fuel

Soviet T-70: 70 fuel (need to invest 50 + 120 + 70 = 240 fuel to get out)

Soviet T-34: 110 fuel (need to invest 50 + 120 + 110 = 280 fuel to get out, note: 20 fuel more than double T-34/85s which are a lot better)

On top of that soviets need to tech at leats AT nades for additional 25 fuel. Molotovs are pretty good too, even just for cover denial or winning engagements, another 25 fuel - while OKW comes with schrecks just at the expense of munitions, very cheap grenades and obers have free LMG34s.


OKW T1 or T2: 40 fuel

OKW Flak HQ: 80 fuel

OKW Puma: 100 fuel (need to invest 40 + 100 = 140 fuel to get out)

OKW Luchs: 50 fuel (need to invest 40 + 80 + 50 = 170 fuel to get out)

OKW Panther: 175 fuel (need to invest 40 + 80 + 175 = 295 fuel to get out)

The 66% fuel income doesn't mean anything when the teching costs are dirt cheap. The panther counters the T-34 by miles with just 15 fuel more. This needs to be adjusted. It's even more broken in team games if the OKW player is supplied using the luftwaffe fuel supply (most broken out of these), fuel caches or Opel trucks.





BUT BUT THE FUEL PENALTY DOH!!!!! I dont care about your facts! FUEL PENALTY!!!1111

:foreveralone:
9 Jan 2015, 00:57 AM
#23
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026


Assuming no new factions will be added.
I'd like to see something more and for coh2 to really become best WW2 platform around, but if it happens it'll be another year of same problems.


They will need to keep adding expansions and/or payed content. Another 3 years on CoH2 isn't feasible without a steady trickle of income to pay for the support.

I'd prefer they basically abandon CoH2 at this point, maybe a few commanders and ToW missions and announce CoH3.

1940/41 setting

Commonwealth, France

vs

Germany, Italy


No Tigers, no MP44s
:foreveralone:
9 Jan 2015, 01:23 AM
#24
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1042



They will need to keep adding expansions and/or payed content. Another 3 years on CoH2 isn't feasible without a steady trickle of income to pay for the support.

I'd prefer they basically abandon CoH2 at this point, maybe a few commanders and ToW missions and announce CoH3.

1940/41 setting

Commonwealth, France

vs

Germany, Italy


No Tigers, no MP44s
:foreveralone:


Damn right, sounds good to me.

Though the German fanboy's tears will be strong when they find their Panzer II can't penetrate Matildas...
9 Jan 2015, 02:01 AM
#25
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026

I think the main problem would be they like to start at two factions then expand to four. So you'd either have like, Ita vs Commonwealth, which wouldn't have Germans and is therefore illegal according to Relic, or Germany vs France, which may be underwhelming because a lot of people don't like France or think they have a really bad military reputation / no interesting units.

But boy it would be a breath of fresh air. North Africa campaign, Fall Gelb campaign.

Could even do a '41 era Soviets thing but I can't think of a third faction to add unless it's... ostheer... again. God I'm sick of two Germ factions every game :((
9 Jan 2015, 02:12 AM
#26
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

I'd love to see marines vs Japanese. New setting, low tech, infantry, light tanks, naval and air based off maps... Bonzai charges!!
9 Jan 2015, 02:16 AM
#27
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

But at least they'll have the Panzer III and Panzer IV (short barrel version), with better vision and target acquisition due to their 3-man turret design!


Could even do a '41 era Soviets thing but I can't think of a third faction to add unless it's... ostheer... again. God I'm sick of two Germ factions every game :((

Well if it's 1941 they can do Romania, Romania actually had vehicles that were relevent in 1941. Even though those tanks were French and Czech made and thus would probably also appear in French and German factions. :P
9 Jan 2015, 02:28 AM
#28
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

how did this get to new factions? no new factions for the moment please. look how screwed up the game has been with the introduction of WFA
9 Jan 2015, 03:25 AM
#29
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

OKW (in particular) and USF just have tech costs that are too low. it's the same issue that OKH/soviets had before tech costs were increased. USF is in a bad situation though because they have 2 starting units and a healing vehicle... they really need a third utility unit (both for faction fun and to open up build options) and one of the smaller mortars would be perfect.
9 Jan 2015, 03:27 AM
#30
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026


Well if it's 1941 they can do Romania, Romania actually had vehicles that were relevent in 1941. Even though those tanks were French and Czech made and thus would probably also appear in French and German factions. :P


Well that just means it's a cheap faction to add, relic would love the idea!

:P

9 Jan 2015, 03:35 AM
#31
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

SOviet t3 and t4 units dont even scale into late game. vet three su85 can work maybe and katyhusa for artillery strikes is all soviet players get
9 Jan 2015, 08:41 AM
#32
avatar of Volsky

Posts: 344

Lel, the Italian Campaign.


Panzer.Division. „Hermann Göring“
FlaK.Rgt. „HG“
Pz.Aufkl.Abt. „HG“
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1 „HG“
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2 „HG“
Pz.Pio.Abt. „HG“
Pz.Rgt. „HG“ (ein Bn. Pz IV, ein Bn. StuG IV)



Gets some of the first StGs, all the goodies (a fair chunk of the G 41(W)s shipped to that theater), TIGER TONKS, and badass uniforms.

Then ofc the 3rd ID comes along and ruins their day with 155 howie spam up the chuff )))

EDIT: Anyone claiming I'm a full on Allied fanboy can go home. You're drunk. I've done my homework (admittedly, for my realism mod, but still, I've done it).

14. Armee

90. Panzergrenadier Division (first five days)
Artillerie.Rgt. 90 (ein Bn. SP, zwei towed)
Aufkl.Abt. 90
LW.FlaK.Rgt. 5
Mapping Trupp 190 <- lel I do don't even
Pio.Abt. 190
Pz.Abt. 190 (StuG IV, 1 Kompanie Pz IV lg)
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 200 (reinforcing)
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 361
StuG.Rgt. 242 (11 StuG M43, 22 StuG M42)
StuG.Kompanie. 247 (7x StuG III)


114. Jäger Division

Artillerie.Rgt. 66
Aufkl.Abt. 114
Jäger.Rgt. 741
Pio.Abt. 114
Pz.Jäg.Abt. 114 (1 StuG M42 kompanie)


I Fallshirm Korps (PE)

4. Fallshirmjager Division
Fallschirmjäger.Artillerie.Rgt. 1/4
Fallshirm.FlaK.Abt. 4 (mot.)
Fallshirm.Pio.Abt. 4
Fallshirm.Pz.Jäg.Abt. 4
Fallschirmjäger.Rgt. 10
Fallschirmjäger.Rgt. 11
Fallschirmjäger.Rgt. 12


29. Panzergrenadier Division
Artillerie.Rgt. 29 (ein Bn. Wespe, zwei mot.)
FlaK.Abt. 313 (mot.)
Pio.Bn. 29 (mot.)
Pz.Abt. 129 (StuGs)
Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 129
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 15
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 71


65. Infanterie Division
Artillerie.Rgt. 165
Aufkl.Abt. 165
Gren.Rgt. 147
Pz.Jäg.Abt. 165
Pio.Abt. 164


715. Infanterie Division (mot.)
Artillerie Rgt. 1/671
Gren.Rgt. 725
Pz.Jäg.Abt. 715
Pio.Rgt. 715

Korps Units
1/Pz.Rgt. 4 (Panthers)
s.Pz.Abt. 508
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1027
s.Pz.Jäg.Abt. 590
s.Pz.Jäg.Abt. 525 (Nashorn)
StuG.Abt., 11. Luftwaffe Korps
Luftlandepionier.Abt. 22


LXXVI Panzer Korps (WM)

3. Panzergrenadier Division
Artillerie.Rgt. 3 (ein Bn. SP, zwei mot)
FlaK.Abt. 3 (mot.)
Pio.Abt. 103
Pz.Abt. 103 (StuG)
Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 103
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 8
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 29


26. Panzer Division
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 9 (ein Bn. armored, zwei mot.)
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 67
Pz.Rgt. 26 (ein Kompanie Pz V, ein Pz IV)
Pz.Aufkl.Abt. 26
FlaK.Abt. 304 (SP)
Pz.Jäg.Abt. 93 (Hornisse?)
Pz.Artillerie.Rgt. 93 (ein Bn. SP, zwei mot.)


Panzer.Division. „Hermann Göring“
FlaK.Rgt. „HG“
Pz.Aufkl.Abt. „HG“
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 1 „HG“
Pz.Gren.Rgt. 2 „HG“
Pz.Pio.Abt. „HG“
Pz.Rgt. „HG“ (ein Bn. Pz IV, ein Bn. StuG IV)


71. Infanterie Division

Corps Units
3/Fallshirmjager Rgt. 1
Fallshirmjager Lehr Abt.
Luftwaffe Feld Abt. 7
2/SS Grenadier Rgt. 35
2/SS Grenadier Rgt. 36
Fusilier Abt. 362
Sturmpanzer Abt. 216
Funklenk Panzer Abt. 301
Pionier Abt. 60
Panzerpionier Abt. 811
Panzerpionier Abt. 813
9 Jan 2015, 10:23 AM
#33
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2015, 20:04 PMTNrg


The katyusha sucks too


Except it doesn't.
9 Jan 2015, 10:28 AM
#34
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2015, 20:14 PMTNrg
Let's compare Soviet and OKW tech costs:

Soviet T1 or T2: 50 fuel

Soviet T3 or T4: 120 fuel

Soviet T-70: 70 fuel (need to invest 50 + 120 + 70 = 240 fuel to get out)

Soviet T-34: 110 fuel (need to invest 50 + 120 + 110 = 280 fuel to get out, note: 20 fuel more than double T-34/85s which are a lot better)

On top of that soviets need to tech at leats AT nades for additional 25 fuel. Molotovs are pretty good too, even just for cover denial or winning engagements, another 25 fuel - while OKW comes with schrecks just at the expense of munitions, very cheap grenades and obers have free LMG34s.


OKW T1 or T2: 40 fuel

OKW Flak HQ: 80 fuel

OKW Puma: 100 fuel (need to invest 40 + 100 = 140 fuel to get out)

OKW Luchs: 50 fuel (need to invest 40 + 80 + 50 = 170 fuel to get out)

OKW Panther: 175 fuel (need to invest 40 + 80 + 175 = 295 fuel to get out)

The 66% fuel income doesn't mean anything when the teching costs are dirt cheap. The panther counters the T-34 by miles with just 15 fuel more. This needs to be adjusted. It's even more broken in team games if the OKW player is supplied using the luftwaffe fuel supply (most broken out of these), fuel caches or Opel trucks.





perhaps the 85 is simply to good compared to stock tanks. oh btw the ost is in far greater trouble because the jacksons counters basically everything the ost has in stock and only the tiger saves them and the 85 pretty much does the same.

the soviet stock units are fine however. what's not fine is accessibility. as i said before if a soviet player builds either tier 3 or 4 the other tier should get a 70 fuel discount. this way you can have both ai and at tanks on the field.
9 Jan 2015, 14:40 PM
#35
avatar of Bananainpajamas

Posts: 123

guys stay on topic the discussion is about how tier 3 and 4 are overpriced which makes players really on cons spam with at nades or tier 2 for at gun and call ins... there is no strategy to this or mid game for Russian players need some tank abilities..
9 Jan 2015, 17:24 PM
#36
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2015, 10:28 AMJaigen


the soviet stock units are fine however. what's not fine is accessibility. as i said before if a


Soviet stock units are very bad along with inaccessible tech costs
9 Jan 2015, 17:28 PM
#37
avatar of steel

Posts: 1963 | Subs: 1



Soviet stock units are very bad along with inaccessible tech costs
Double whammy.
9 Jan 2015, 18:22 PM
#38
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Soviet stock units are very bad along with inaccessible tech costs


no. the problem lies between your chair and the screen.
9 Jan 2015, 18:29 PM
#39
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2015, 18:22 PMJaigen


no. the problem lies between your chair and the screen.


Yes just quote Katitof will ya?


Soviet units have relevance for about 5 minutes after they come out. After that, they are horribly outclassed by Axis counterparts. The only thing that is useful late game is the Katyusha and a Vet two or three SU85
9 Jan 2015, 19:14 PM
#40
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2015, 18:22 PMJaigen


no. the problem lies between your chair and the screen.


L2P advice from someone who does not show card or any replay.. come on..
Worst medium tank, worst tank destroyer, no stock late-game infantry, useless su-76, unused M5. Only Snipers are powerful. M3 and Penals as well but only at the beginning.

On the other hand we have Luchs, Obers, Panther, Stuka, Puma, Flak truck... All of them are very powerful.
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