AT infantry

Something needs to give, across all factions, when it comes to AT infantry.

I just won a 2 v 2 where my shrek PzGrens eviscerated several tanks (T34 and Easy-8 Shermans) better than my Paks.

I just lost a 4 v 4 where ludicrously durable Vet 4 and 5 Volks blobs roamed the battlefield like T2000s.

So I'm not making a pro-Allied fanboy point (I like playing Wehr, actually, where the meta demands heavy T1 / T2 play into Tigers and Elephants, making shrek infantry more or less mandatory.

OTOH US zooks are like pea-shooters and Soviet guards are increasingly impotent against anything but the lightest vehicles.

The answer?

AT teams. I used to play the Close Combat series where AT teams were separate infantry teams.

Shrek crews should be three strong, not very good versus infantry and require screening by other units. There's one thing that straight away makes Axis E-Z mode less-micro issues disappear.

Bazooka crews should be the same. The zook should be dangerous against medium armour but require micro and ambush tactics to use properly. Lone AT teams would be super-vulnerable. For Russians, I'd just give them zooks or make the AT rifle more of a focussed weapon that can do crits a la the Stuart.

Currently we have AT teams with MP44 / G43 and captured small arms. I recently had a Vet 3 PzGren with shreks and a captured flamethrower. LOL.

My proposed AT teams would be able to use 1 captured weapon but as a unit they should never be as good as a proper anti-infantry configured team.

TL;DR - AT infantry should be small, frail high-risk high-return T2 units.

I kinda like the idea but that would mean Pgrens is stuck in AI role now which they're not really good at now. Something needs to be adjusted for them as well.


What happens to the USF bazooka rack?

^ That's a good point about the zook rack. I hadn't thought of it TBH. Like you say, every change has knock-ons.

Maybe zooks could stay as they are for untrained troops and be unlockable but AT inf have better aim and pen due to their specialisation. I dunno.

PzGrens should be heavy assault infantry. Freeing them of the At role would give a Wehr player a solid short-range shock-like AI unit. Maybe the cost should be revisited. Their upgrades should be sprint and maybe non-doctrinal G43.

Well could just nerf shreks, since its the root cause of the lack of soviet medium armor and encourage call-in meta.

current issue with shreks and zooka, is that they have good accuracy and range with german panzershrek penetrating all soviet/USF medium tanks easily. Penetration for zooka is less of an issue, since most of german tanks have high armor value except for stug.

^ Yes, I think that's a perfectly valid solution, too.

But it doesn't really change the level of micro required. I think the idea of having to position AT infantry and screen them might add to the tactical fun / challenge of CoH2 for Axis.

I loved that Brit PIAT ambush ability. You could have all sorts of stuff like that. It would challenge the heavy armour stomp meta. I want driving un-screened tanks into urban areas, for example, to be a nightmare for all factions.

^ Yes, I think that's a perfectly valid solution, too.

But it doesn't really change the level of micro required. I think the idea of having to position AT infantry and screen them might add to the tactical fun / challenge of CoH2 for Axis.

I loved that Brit PIAT ambush ability. You could have all sorts of stuff like that. It would challenge the heavy armour stomp meta. I want driving un-screened tanks into urban areas, for example, to be a nightmare for all factions.

The thing you are talking about is almost perfectly implemented in the game as AT partisans, they have shrecks, they have mines, they have at granades and they can come out of any building being a nightmare for tanks in urban areas. There are only two problems with them: they are doctrinal and they sometimes get ptrs instead of shreck (but early game it doesnt matter).

Nerf long range accuracy of schreks.
Buff allied AT infantry to usefulness.

Infantry AT should not be some sort of factional advantage. One side should not be any better at it then the other. Especially not the side with better tanks.

Nerf long range accuracy of schreks.
Buff allied AT infantry to usefulness.

Infantry AT should not be some sort of factional advantage. One side should not be any better at it then the other. Especially not the side with better tanks.

You realize of course both the Shreks and Bazookas have the exact same accuracy. The problem isnt the Weapon its the crazy Vet of the unit that carries it.

If they were to Nerf the Accuracy of Shreks the only thing that should be done for Zooks is remove the fuel cost and say half the Muni cost. 90 Muni for a BAR and Zook basically would give you a Rifle Squad that had no AI drawback and could do SOME AT even if its crap for no net loss.

Otherwise they should not touch the Shrek and buff the crap out of the Zooks to make them as useful as Shreks.

AT teams as a kind of crewed weapon is a solid idea for Company of Heroes 3, but not very feasible except maybe as a mod for CoH2.

Shreks are not such a major problem on Wehr despite having a 120mun doubleshrek upgrade. It's the rest of the OKW faction supporting them that are problematic - the fact that volks vet is so awesome (and so easy to get when the shreks are flying) and the fact that Obers will lock down your own infantry counters to the volks that are problematic.

- Modest long range accuracy reduction on Zooks AND shreks.
- Cost reduction for bazooka (60 -> 50 perhaps)
- Lower damage of LMG34, increase damage of rifles in ober squad so that losing a model causes a higher proportional drop of DPS and picking up an lmg34 on the ground doesn't automatically turn rear ech into superheroes
- Lower cost of Obsersoldaten to 340mp, but require a 90mun upgrade to get LMG. Thus, you cannot go for heavy Shreks + Obers unless you sacrifice fuel to get there in a reasonable timeframe.

Give portable rocket AT an aiming delay like sniper

Reduce range on shreks

Close Combat players always come up with reasonable points and suggestions, for a reason. Agree on this.

Reduce speed of units carrying AT launchers

Interestingly OKW had AT teams at some point but the concept was dropped and AT was given to Sturmpioneers before being moved to Volksgrenadiers right before release. It was a mistake to cut them but I have no doubt Relic will never include them.

I agree that AT Teams would be far better for OKW as they wouldn't have to sink munitions into Panzerschrecks, but the dedicated AT unit would also only be effective in that role.

Oh wow, I used to love the close combat series! Anyway, I agree that something needs to give with the handheld AT. Pgrens are effective but expensive and have drawbacks when upgrading to shreks; it's the roving blobs of okw volks and obers every single game that are just getting silly.

Ok so let's theorize.

Assuming CoH2 equivalent mechanics (in terms of explosion damage and calculations and such), an AT team has 4 men. 1 has the rocket launcher. 1 is a loader. 2 Have rifles / spare men in the team.

If you get down to 1 man, the squad does not wipe, but it is unable to reload after firing, assuming it is loaded. It can retreat at this point.

Does that sound roughly fair?

Ok so let's theorize.

Assuming CoH2 equivalent mechanics (in terms of explosion damage and calculations and such), an AT team has 4 men. 1 has the rocket launcher. 1 is a loader. 2 Have rifles / spare men in the team.

If you get down to 1 man, the squad does not wipe, but it is unable to reload after firing, assuming it is loaded. It can retreat at this point.

Does that sound roughly fair?

Given the amount of RNG that can occur with regards to squad wipes and near squad wipes, this could prove to be a pain. OKW 4 Man AT team approaching Sherman/Scott, already you can see the potential for this unit being very fragile as both the Sherman and Scott have high wipe ratios. (USF vehicle squad wipe ability is another topic all together)

Plus squads could be pushed around meaning the loader becomes separated from Gunner, therefore making the unit useless.

The overall idea of AT only infantry units is a good idea, but I doubt it will be implemented

That being said I think currently OKW has easy access to AT infantry which performs better than it should. Which is why most players complain about the Shrek blobs

Maybe the reload speed is doubled when it's down to 1 man or separated or something. I'm trying to make it a kind of hybrid crew served weapon, but without some of the drawbacks like needing to set up / pack up the gun. Like the Raketenwerfer, but probably a little better because the unit would be more responsive and can be used offensively a little easier. Worse in range most likely though.

I don't think there's any issue with a 4 man crew being too vulnerable, that's the Axis standard. If you could tone down squad wiping across the board in, say, CoH3, I would even suggest 3 man weapon crew.

Totally agreed that AT infantry, in particular shreks, need a good hard look in.

Not so sure about the alternatives...

I also played the CC series a lot and i love the idea of AT-teams but i don't think it will work with the current dynamics. 4-man squads gets wiped all the time by 12cm mortar, sherman HE rounds, scotts, greyhound shotgun etc.

I think that the price of schrecks and zooks should be increased to make you not want to spam them. That way you'd have one or maybe two dedicated AT squads that you really don't want to lose so you'd play more carefully with it. Of course, the problem with random wipes would be really frustrating still.

There's no problem with shrecks. Schrecked pzgrens can be countered with infantry, mgs, etc. The only moment when schreck becomes problematic is in the hands of volks IF THEY BLOB. So the actual problem is not the weapon itself but the carrier. The carrier is to durable, it vets quick and from vet 4 becomes a monster. Like I said before: reduce volks squad to 4 in order to make them less durable or do something about thheir vet scale, or both, but if both changes are applied, their health must be increased a bit or they should get a received accuracy bonus.

I guarantee that the blob presence on the batlefield will be reduced due to the periodic runs to the base and walks back. 4 people are harder to preserve, right? So if 2 or 3 gets killed by a shot you will withdrow the squad instantly or expose yourself to a great risk.

This solution would be so much simpler than applying changes to a weapon and have no ideas how this change will influence the meta.

Just imagine a nerfed schreck for ostheer together with the present (nerfed PAK 40). The ostheer player will stick to this combo a while to stop allied medium armor because he doesn't have other alternatives. Pz IV for instance is far away.
Imagine what a nerfed schreck would mean for OKW. YES! PAYBACK TIME you will think. Exactly, but bye bye balance. What can they use? Raketenwerfer...no?
Puma would mean to kill the diversity of OKW start. OKW will start then ONLY with T3 because this way it will have the best chance to get an AT in time.