OKW, the root of most balance issues?

I dont believe I ever said it was unbeatable. I remember the Obers intially when I killed over 1000MP worth of Soviet units with a Single squad. And I played them exclusivley at the time and said at that time Obers needed to be nerfed so not sure what your getting at really.

Also at that time it was harder to whip out a Panther and the Panther was weaker even when you did. So having Infantry only got you so far. The flaktrack was also VERY vulnerable due to tear down time.

Since when I played COH1 you were probably in Grade School your right my memory may not serve me as well. It was Pre Opposing fronts....

actually no. Their aim should be a balanced game regardless what their customers want because some would totally fuck up balance because of their own biased vieuws. And i suspect you are one of them

That the majority holds a view doesn't are right.

balance is either subjective, in which case you aim for most people to be satisfied, or it is statistical, in which case you compare the different parts through math. of course that requires things be assigned values, which is subjective.

relic appears to be trying to balance statistically but they're leaving people dissatisfied and they're not doing a very good job.

Lol obers are unbeliavably strong. They are the offspring of shock troops and snipers. They are tough, destroy all other infantry at long range, have a good squad size and have access to grenades.

Their aim should be a balanced game regardless what their customers want because some would totally fuck up balance because of their own biased vieuws. And i suspect you are one of them

So true.


Best signature ever as well.

I can imagine Relic pre WFA development planing dialog:

1: Hey, guys, i have a great idea — lets give Axis, which already have huge advantage in late game with their superior tanks and weapon upgraded infantry another faction, which mitigates Axis weakness in early game, allows to play aggressively instead of defensively, and make Axis late game even more broken with free repair stations, fhqs and panther range flak emplacements able to kill medium tanks as well as infantry without any problem.
2: I have even better idea — lets give Allies, which suffer in late game from armor quality disadvantage and from inability to hold line from middle to late due to superiority of Axis infantry another ultra-aggressive faction, which even weaker in late game and unable to play defensively at all.
3: Yeah, sure, what can possibly go wrong?

And thats how balance in team games was ruined forever.

How to fix it? Give USF and SU powerful late game commanders, nerf obers, nerf half of the okw vet (hey, bulletproof terminators vet 5 volks with shrecks, i am looking at you), nerf their flak hq.

Obersoldaten are not affected by the resource penalty, of course they are not, they are just the consequence for the resource penalty. Relic made an extremely powerful infantry unit that OKW can still afford to buy with their handicapped munition and fuel income to compensate for everything OKW lacks in their other units to fight infantry. This may be absurd but this is what we have right now. Don't you think Relic normally would have already nerfed this unit to the ground seeing how many complaints there are about this unit since release of WFA?

The perfect way to answer to the question "Is OKW balanced or not?" is to play with USF and Soviets against it and to be honest to yourself while doing so. Than, answer this question: Which one of these battles seemed more difficult? The ones while playing okw? The ones while playing Soviets? USF?

I discovered that the most difficult is playing (or rather resisting) with USF. Hell, even with soviets it's not easy at all, but there you have the cheesee tactics at least.
All in all, OKW is somewhat easier to handle. If you got experience with that faction, you will go farther in ladders than with USF, for instance. Let's remember that they are a quite simple faction, not manny things that require extra micro! (except for Puma). How much micro involves an USF play? Alot, compared to an OKW play! Maybe here it's the real problem

The perfect way to answer to the question "Is OKW balanced or not?" is to play with USF and Soviets against it and to be honest to yourself while doing so. Than, answer this question: Which one of these battles seemed more difficult? The ones while playing okw? The ones while playing Soviets? USF?

I discovered that the most difficult is playing (or rather resisting) with USF. Hell, even with soviets it's not easy at all, but there you have the cheesee tactics at least.
All in all, OKW is somewhat easier to handle. If you got experience with that faction, you will go farther in ladders than with USF, for instance. Let's remember that they are a quite simple faction, not manny things that require extra micro! (except for Puma). How much micro involves an USF play? Alot, compared to an OKW play! Maybe here it's the real problem

Peculiar notion. the soviets cheese only works again the ost not against the okw. many cheese tactics like maxim spam and sniper spam will fall on its face. And compared to SC2 i dont find this game to be micro intensive at all. it requires common sense and the full knowledge what your faction limits and capabilities are

Of course the common sense part is rather rare as i once again had a soviet player last night who had the brilliant idea to charge a shock squad headlong on open ground to 2 obers to throw a grenade.

I think resolving two glaring issues would help the balance greatly.

1. Adjusting Obers, so they are not broken anymore. I don't think ammunition cost increase alone will resolve the issue. Their dps has to be adjusted as well.
2. Decrease long range accuracy on Volks shreks so they still have an AT option but it's not almost denying allied medium tanks usage.


On the side note I find it hilarious how unit that menages to grab Obers lmg magically turns into a squad of super soldiers. One game I got it on combat engineers squad as it was the only unit nearby and I didn't want my opponent to reclaim it. They were destroying everything on the field.

Peculiar notion. the soviets cheese only works again the ost not against the okw. many cheese tactics like maxim spam and sniper spam will fall on its face. And compared to SC2 i dont find this game to be micro intensive at all. it requires common sense and the full knowledge what your faction limits and capabilities are

Of course the common sense part is rather rare as i once again had a soviet player last night who had the brilliant idea to charge a shock squad headlong on open ground to 2 obers to throw a grenade.

I must insist that you upload this replay. If he really did that then it doesn't sound like "high level" play at all.

On the side note I find it hilarious how unit that menages to grab Obers lmg magically turns into a squad of super soldiers. One game I got it on combat engineers squad as it was the only unit nearby and I didn't want my opponent to reclaim it. They were destroying everything on the field.

I have a memory of capturing LMG34 with shock troops. Is that possible or can shocks not pick anything up?

But yeah it turns any squad into demons.

IMO they should further downgrade LMG34 dps and upgrade ober K98 DPS so that losing models has more of an impact on the squad's performance.

1919 and an lmg34 on a rifle squad once.

lmg34 on a major, he went vet 3 FAST.

got one on a left-tenant once, he was beastly.



and yes, shocks can pick up weapons. they do great with a shrek or two.

How effective they are to the faction shows when a OKW player quits when you democharge-wipe a group of three of them, even when they are winning the game.


That and OKW players leaving when you pick up one of there 34s on the ground.

Obers need to be powerful for the OKW since without them they would just get raped and shit on afterwards by Inf blobs/med tank trains from both allied factions with or without the flak HT or stuka, lets be real.

BUT they dont have to be so over-the-top easy mode Amove and forget squad wipes machine that they are now,Hell they even challenge light vehicles in some cases.


I +1 to nerfing LMG34 and buffing their k98, make obers like falls. including obers losing that lame received accuracy. They ARE human beings relic..theres no reason they should dodge aimed shots any better than anyone else unless they use cover like everyone else has to...at least until vetted...

nor should they be able to terminator spray with their LMG with such accuracy at a distance...

and theres a reason people dont blob falls/volks the same way they do obers/volks.

I think resolving two glaring issues would help the balance greatly.

1. Adjusting Obers, so they are not broken anymore. I don't think ammunition cost increase alone will resolve the issue. Their dps has to be adjusted as well.
2. Decrease long range accuracy on Volks shreks so they still have an AT option but it's not almost denying allied medium tanks usage.


On the side note I find it hilarious how unit that menages to grab Obers lmg magically turns into a squad of super soldiers. One game I got it on combat engineers squad as it was the only unit nearby and I didn't want my opponent to reclaim it. They were destroying everything on the field.

You sir are a wise man. I will miss "Major Pain" though. Soooo funny with an LMG34....

The other change you could make to Obers is to make their Vet basically meaningless / tiny bonuses. Or eliminate it outright. Since they're supposed to be ultra-veterans, they shouldn't really have much more to learn from combat experience compared to say, raw soviet recruits, who should theoretically have the easiest time making significant experience-based progress.

Obers need to be powerful for the OKW since without them they would just get raped and shit on afterwards by Inf blobs/med tank trains from both allied factions with or without the flak HT or stuka, lets be real.

BUT they dont have to be so over-the-top easy mode Amove and forget squad wipes machine that they are now,Hell they even challenge light vehicles in some cases.


I +1 to nerfing LMG34 and buffing their k98, make obers like falls. including obers losing that lame received accuracy. They ARE human beings relic..theres no reason they should dodge aimed shots any better than anyone else unless they use cover like everyone else has to...at least until vetted...

nor should they be able to terminator spray with their LMG with such accuracy at a distance...

and theres a reason people dont blob falls/volks the same way they do obers/volks.

Just so you know received accuracy modifiers are a balance tool, not a history simulation feature.

It's actually a nerf from their armor which they previously had.

Which also points out that obers should be dealt with explosives -which are more than common in game- not small arms.

Just so you know received accuracy modifiers are a balance tool, not a history simulation feature.

It's actually a nerf from their armor which they previously had.

Which also points out that obers should be dealt with explosives -which are more than common in game- not small arms.

Not exactly a nerf. LMG's, HMG's and the like usually have more than one penetration, which allows them to negate armor. With reduced recieved accuracy, obers can dodge those bullets and fare better than they would normally if they had armor.

And if you assume that it is right that obers can not be countered by other infantry, then i dont know what to say. Of course... That is a completely rational answer. Devote fuel to kill a manpower only unit. Nothing wrong with that. Screw bothering with conventional methods that apply to everything else for good reason.

Not exactly a nerf. LMG's, HMG's and the like usually have more than one penetration, which allows them to negate armor. With reduced recieved accuracy, obers can dodge those bullets and fare better than they would normally if they had armor.

And if you assume that it is right that obers can not be countered by other infantry, then i dont know what to say. Of course... That is a completely rational answer. Devote fuel to kill a manpower only unit. Nothing wrong with that. Screw bothering with conventional methods that apply to everything else for good reason.

Of course they shouldnt. They have a Titanium Endo Skeleton and were built by Skynet!

BTW Guard Rifle Combined tactics - another great "anti-OKW" commander I like. Absolute T2>T4 with this one.

To be honest I think T4 is much better against OKW in general. Howitzers and any indirect fire units are doing pretty well against this faction.