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Rifle grenade madness after last big patch

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Aerohank
18 Nov 2014, 16:31 PM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2014, 15:25 PMgokkel
How is improved unit responsiveness from the last patch favoring rifle grenades? It means you have now more reaction time to escape. Units clumping up more affects all AoE weapons, why do Rifle grenades get singled out of this? It is those weapons that you cannot dodge at all that profit most from the last patch, namely stuff like tank shells.


Rifle grenades are telegraphed really poorly compared to other grenades thanks to their huge range.

If a volksgrenadier squad wants to throw a grenade, they have to close in to throw it with an obvious animation, and after it lands there is a time. The enemy can suspect one is going to get thrown from the moment the volksgrenadiers break cover to close in for the throw.

Now grenadiers on the other hand give the enemy little time to react. Grenadiers don't have to break cover to launch a rifle nade, the animation isn't that obvious as stationary troops kneel and go to prone from time to time by themselves, and the grenade explodes on impact. The enemy has to suspect a rifle grenade all the time and can't look away because the entire cycle of 'break cover > close in > animtion > fuse' does not apply to rifle nades.
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gman1211
18 Nov 2014, 16:36 PM
#22
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Posts: 133

Due to grenade improvements (rifle grenade specifically) I no longer use msg on soviets, they simply die to easily to a single rifle grenade.

Thankfully most people haven't learned to deal with snipers yet.
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elchino7
18 Nov 2014, 16:38 PM
#23
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We just need the spread out formation button.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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QueenRatchet123
18 Nov 2014, 17:05 PM
#24
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Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2014, 16:38 PMelchino7
We just need the spread out formation button.


WHY ARE U NOT WORKING FOR RELIC?!?!?!
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 14:01 PMJohnnyB

There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
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FathersSon
18 Nov 2014, 17:29 PM
#25
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Posts: 21

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2014, 15:55 PMMettiu


No they are not that good I think OP just cant micro his units.


Against rifle grenades I mostly can't, that is true. But I am for sure not the only one. No matter if I watch high level replays or watch other players in team games or if I use riflenades myself: They are hard to avoid. For me. And most others.
Maybe you are better with that, and maybe you can pass that on to other players.

For sure I can avoid all other grenades (when I see them coming). They are easier to spot plus you have some seconds to move your squad. My fused grenades rarely hit and I very rarely get hit by fused grenades.

Maybe you are the master of riflenade evasion, or you just don't use cover. Maybe I can learn from you.

But no matter what: There is a strong disparity between rifle grenades and all fused grenades. And that is true for sure. For 30 munition you get a grenade that is better than most other axis grenades and better than all other 30 munition grenades. My point is that there is little reason to use other infantry abilities if you have riflenades at your disposal.
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Sierra
19 Nov 2014, 01:01 AM
#26
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Posts: 432

Are people really complaining about Rifle Grenades? For gods sake it's an equalizer. It's how a Grenadier squad can possibly survive an encouter against 2 American Riflesquads or a bunch of conscripts.
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emil_fh
19 Nov 2014, 01:13 AM
#27
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Posts: 28

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 01:01 AMSierra
Are people really complaining about Rifle Grenades? For gods sake it's an equalizer. It's how a Grenadier squad can possibly survive an encouter against 2 American Riflesquads or a bunch of conscripts.


Really think Relic should implement some kind of damage roof for all splash weapons. For example: nades can have a roof of maybe 240 max killing 3 guys, bigger explosives such as artilley and demo charges higher roof, high enough to wipe a squad with a good hit, but maybe not several at once. Should be simple to implement I think.
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Nuclear Arbitor
19 Nov 2014, 04:34 AM
#28
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Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

to much work. tweaking the medium aoe so the damage falls off 80 faster but stays, say 60, for a while would help prevent wipes.
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SlaYoU
19 Nov 2014, 06:46 AM
#29
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Posts: 400

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 01:01 AMSierra
Are people really complaining about Rifle Grenades? For gods sake it's an equalizer. It's how a Grenadier squad can possibly survive an encouter against 2 American Riflesquads or a bunch of conscripts.


But you know blobs are bad (only when they are axis blobs).
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FathersSon
19 Nov 2014, 10:26 AM
#30
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 01:01 AMSierra
Are people really complaining about Rifle Grenades? For gods sake it's an equalizer. It's how a Grenadier squad can possibly survive an encouter against 2 American Riflesquads or a bunch of conscripts.


So you think Relic implemented the new cover mechanic and unit responsiveness solely to provide a buff to riflenades to add firepower to grenadiers in case they face off against 2 riflemen?

That would be a really convoluted way of balancing.

I don't think that was there intention. I think they implemented those changes because they felt that units moved awkwardly and they had to do something about it. And it was crappy that one model stood out of cover, thus suppressing the whole squad.

Plus it's not like other Axis grenades don't suck as well. Every grenade can be evaded now.

So I really disagree with you, I think you got it wrong why Relic implemented those changes. Those changes were asked for for such a long time by the community. Non-fluent response times kept CoH2 from ever being better than vCoH.
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Sierra
19 Nov 2014, 10:41 AM
#31
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Posts: 432

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 10:26 AMFathersSon
So you think Relic implemented the new cover mechanic and unit responsiveness solely to provide a buff to riflenades to add firepower to grenadiers in case they face off against 2 riflemen?

That would be a really convoluted way of balancing.

I don't think that was there intention. I think they implemented those changes because they felt that units moved awkwardly and they had to do something about it. And it was crappy that one model stood out of cover, thus suppressing the whole squad.

Plus it's not like other Axis grenades don't suck as well. Every grenade can be evaded now.

So I really disagree with you, I think you got it wrong why Relic implemented those changes. Those changes were asked for for such a long time by the community. Non-fluent response times kept CoH2 from ever being better than vCoH.


What's convoluted is your interpretation of what I just said. At no point did I say that Relic implemented the new cover mechanic to buff riflegrenades. That would be crazy!

What I meant to say is Rifle Grenades were potent only on bunched up infantry, and they were great around Beta up until they were nerfed. Then they were crap. Now they are pretty decent and serve to put a dent into blobbed Allied units. I think it's a good change, it's a happy accident.


But again, I reiterate. I NEVER SAID THAT RELIC IMPLEMENTED THESE CHANGES TO BUFF RIFLE GRENADES.

Also I ask that in the future you try not to put words into my mouth, thanks. :D
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Australian Magic
19 Nov 2014, 10:47 AM
#32
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Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Just lost 6 members paras squad with LMGs, standing on the open area and around 90% HP due to rifle nade :gimpy:
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Sierra
19 Nov 2014, 10:49 AM
#33
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Posts: 432

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 10:47 AMAustralian Magic
Just lost 6 members paras squad with LMGs, standing on the open area and around 90% HP due to rifle nade :gimpy:


Were they clumped up at all?
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Australian Magic
19 Nov 2014, 10:54 AM
#34
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 10:49 AMSierra


Were they clumped up at all?


4 models middle, and two on each side 2 meters from the middle.
But the problem it's not probably rifle nade but propensity for clumping. I mean, why the heal 4 model are so close to each other if they are standing on open, gardening wide area?
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Sierra
19 Nov 2014, 10:58 AM
#35
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Posts: 432

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 10:54 AMAustralian Magic


4 models middle, and two on each side in 2 meters from the middle.
But the problem it's not probably rifle nade but propensity for clumping. I mean, why the heal 4 model are so close to each other if they are standing on open, gardening wide area?


Well then what probably happened was the 4 were killed instantly by the grenade and the other two, already wounded, were killed off by the Kar-98k's and the LMG-42. Though you were there and saw it, so I can't really say what happened, but that's just my idea of the scenario.


The models clump now because they all try to fit behind the reworked cover slots. We can't have it both ways. It's either we deal with clumping to fit in cover, or we have guys who stand outside of cover and bring the whole squad down by having him be the window to them taking suppression and damage.


Personally I think it's a non-issue and people will just need to learn to deal with it over time. It's a nice little tool that the Germans can use and it keeps the Allies on their toes.
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Australian Magic
19 Nov 2014, 11:15 AM
#36
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Selfie before grenade:


Selfie after rifle nade

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FathersSon
19 Nov 2014, 12:20 PM
#37
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Posts: 21

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 10:41 AMSierra


What's convoluted is your interpretation of what I just said. At no point did I say that Relic implemented the new cover mechanic to buff riflegrenades. That would be crazy!

What I meant to say is Rifle Grenades were potent only on bunched up infantry, and they were great around Beta up until they were nerfed. Then they were crap. Now they are pretty decent and serve to put a dent into blobbed Allied units. I think it's a good change, it's a happy accident.


But again, I reiterate. I NEVER SAID THAT RELIC IMPLEMENTED THESE CHANGES TO BUFF RIFLE GRENADES.

Also I ask that in the future you try not to put words into my mouth, thanks. :D


Well, since I specifically addressed the rifle grenades after the last big patch I thought you justified the potency of rifle grenades due to the new cover clumping as an intentional change.

So we agree that it is not intentional, sorry for getting you wrong there.
But you appreciate the unintentional buff, I don't.

But what do you think about the other grenades? On my level of play, they don't do anything now against squads without setup time. If you catch the grenade throw, you evade. No matter if you are Axis or Allies. I am saying "on my level of play", and that is not even high. The highest I ever got was rank 250 in arranged team 2vs2, currently I am closer to rank 1000. The exception are grenades with lower fuse time, as thrown by elite infantry.
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Sierra
19 Nov 2014, 12:32 PM
#38
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Posts: 432

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 12:20 PMFathersSon


Well, since I specifically addressed the rifle grenades after the last big patch I thought you justified the potency of rifle grenades due to the new cover clumping as an intentional change.

So we agree that it is not intentional, sorry for getting you wrong there.
But you appreciate the unintentional buff, I don't.

But what do you think about the other grenades? On my level of play, they don't do anything now against squads without setup time. If you catch the grenade throw, you evade. No matter if you are Axis or Allies. I am saying "on my level of play", and that is not even high. The highest I ever got was rank 250 in arranged team 2vs2, currently I am closer to rank 1000. The exception are grenades with lower fuse time, as thrown by elite infantry.



I never take stock in leaderboard rankings. They rarely have any true value on someone's skill level since to end up on the highest listings you need to make almost zero mistakes and understand the capabilities of units and be able to function with the precision of a machine.

Besides, a single defeat can throw your rank back by hundreds.
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bämbabäm
19 Nov 2014, 12:37 PM
#39
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Posts: 246

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 11:15 AMAustralian Magic
snip


Well, your pics show that your squad was roughly at 2/3 of its health, not 90% :P
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FathersSon
19 Nov 2014, 12:49 PM
#40
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Posts: 21

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Nov 2014, 12:32 PMSierra



I never take stock in leaderboard rankings. They rarely have any true value on someone's skill level since to end up on the highest listings you need to make almost zero mistakes and understand the capabilities of units and be able to function with the precision of a machine.

Besides, a single defeat can throw your rank back by hundreds.


I don't either, that is not why I brought it up. I did it to tell you that I am no top tier player, but even for me evading all grenades but rifle grenades is really easy. Before units were super responsive, the 1.5 second fuse was usually not enough to evade pretty much all incoming damage. Now it is.
Since the fuse time does not apply to rifle grenades evading them did not get easier.

About the cover clumping: This makes all grenades more efficient, but it doesn't matter since anything but rifle grenades is now easily avoided.

I feel that the last big patch really screwed up grenade balance (even inside the axis faction. why would you ever wanna throw another type of grenade?).
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