Bars are the worst upgrade in the game.

So bars are terrible, you pay 60 munitions for hardly any benifit, but just how bad are they compared to other upgrades?

I am going to list dps numbers and state how much more effective a unit becomes after buying an upgrade at their intended role(close range, long range ect.) its understood that there are other consequences to upgrades but i'm just looking at how much better your unit will become at what you want them to do

Obers
32 DPS Close range with an LMG
64 DPS with an STG

100% increase in damage for 90 munitions

Grens
8 DPS long range vanilla
14 DPS with LMG

75% increase in damage for 60 munitions

Grens
20 DPS vanilla close
32 DPS with G43s close

60% increase in damage 45 munitions

Rifleman BARs
30 DPS at range 5
34 DPS at range 5 (1 BAR)
38 DPS at range 5 (2 BAR)

13% Increase in damage for 60 munitions. <-------------
26% Increase in damage for 120 munitions <-------------

m1919s
7.5 DPS max range
14 DPS increase at max range 1 lmg

86% Increase in damage for 70 munitions

PPSH cons
18 DPS
33 DPS

83% increase in damage for 40 munitions

I know The devs at relic use math to balance this game, How can spending 60 munitions on a 13% DPS increase possibly be balanced at all when compared to other munitions based upgrades in the game?

Anybody think BARS need a buff or a nerf or a change?

Edit:

G43s on Panzergrenadiers actually make them worse from ranges 0-29, and barely add any dps past that range so that is the worst upgrade not BARs...b/c it makes your unit worse just skipped over it b/c i forgot it existed since only the AI ever gets it

Thats a tough one. Once you factor in the unlock cost as well it is, at least for me, hard to justify the BARs.

Nobody wanted a BAR nerf, yet we got one anyway. An already underused upgrade just became even worse even compared to the (much less) nerfed LMGs.

I recently played some US matches and just thought what the actual fuck, compared with the alpha (where I played mostly US) they feel like peashooters now. Either reduce the Bar price or increase the performance.

Played my first couple of games today where I got the BAR's after the patch, and I was unpleasantly surprised by their performance.
They definitely don't feel like they're worth their research and ammo cost.

As it stands, would much rather give Rifles bazookas (never thought I'd say that) and use Paratroopers to fight infantry.

So... I was fighting a rifle blob that had bars, and they were melting my volks squads. Then I noticed one of the squads had double stolen lmg34s. One squad wipe later and the Rifles were out of the game.

Well, I won't argue that the BARs are the worst upgrade available right now.

But the comparison is a bit flawed, since you do chose the most optimal range (in terms of % increase in damage for the squad) for most of the weapons, but at the same time, you chose one of the worst range for BARs.
At max range, they provide for ~20% damage increase for 60 munitions. Still the worst upgrade, but it's 50% better than what your number suggest.

Wow I knew they were bad but is this a bug? I thought it was a rebalance not a nerf and haven't tried them as I am on an allied hiatus. That and zooks are so sooooo bad.

Agreed entirely, BARs are underpreforming.

I don't think BARs are too weak. In fact, I think they are about right as is: a reasonable boost to DPS at all ranges. What is worth bearing in mind is that unlike most of these other upgrades, BARs don't change how you have to use the squad. For example, Ober STGs force you to get close to take advantage of the DPS. Similarly, the Gren LMG can't be fired on the move. BARs have no such limitation.

However, I will agree that they are too expensive. I'm fine with the research cost, but 120 munis for 2 per squad becomes a ridiculous munitions sink, especially given that the USF already have a lot of things to spend munis on (grenades, expensive artillery, Sherman MGs). I think both Zooks and BARs would really benefit from only costing 45 or 50 munis a pop (M1919s should stay at 60).

Well damn. US just can't get a break can they.

I don't think BARs are too weak. In fact, I think they are about right as is: a reasonable boost to DPS at all ranges. What is worth bearing in mind is that unlike most of these other upgrades, BARs don't change how you have to use the squad. For example, Ober STGs force you to get close to take advantage of the DPS. Similarly, the Gren LMG can't be fired on the move. BARs have no such limitation.

However, I will agree that they are too expensive. I'm fine with the research cost, but 120 munis for 2 per squad becomes a ridiculous munitions sink, especially given that the USF already have a lot of things to spend munis on (grenades, expensive artillery, Sherman MGs). I think both Zooks and BARs would really benefit from only costing 45 or 50 munis a pop (M1919s should stay at 60).

I thought M1919's have been ninja nerfed to 70 munitions? (I have used USF this patch, but i havent used M1919's in a while, so i am probably wrong)

Anyways, decreasing the cost per bazooka and per BAR would be nice.

Hmmm, Bars, they're a tough one, but honestly they only need a small buff for mid-range, lmgs counter bars really well at mid-long range so it would be nice to break even I think.

I wouldn't pay 10 muni or any fuel for a 4 DPS increase....ever...one grenade toss potentially will do 160 damage instantly. That would take a BAR what 40 seconds? Ummmm no.

grenades are now much more cost effective. Bars are a joke.

Looking at those numbers you could probably cut the upgrade cost of bars in half and still not run into balance issues.

At a glance it didn't seem worth it to me. Interesting to see good US players making the same conclusion (and actually having valid reasons ) How do you guys cope with having less infantry AI power once the grens get their LMGs?

I only have four US commanders, and I almost always play as airborne (M1919 on paratroopers) or infantry (M1919 on EVRYTHING) - that the way to go?

I though I was the only one... ya, they are really bad. In fact I'd go as far as saying that the bazooka and its random infantry hits is significantly better.

BARs? What is it Kappa, nobody buying them.