My thoughts & ideas on Conscripts

hi sib what do you think about this thread? do you think conscripts need better scaling?

hi sib what do you think about this thread? do you think conscripts need better scaling?

Hey Ninja,

Yes, I do believe Conscripts need better scaling towards the later stages of the game but one which would allow Penals to have a role to fulfil. I liked the suggestions of making Conscripts be upgraded via the T3/T4 building to reduce their upkeep slightly and giving Penals some love to bridge the gap between Elite Infantry (Shocks / Guards) and Conscripts.

I am at work now so I don't wish to go into too many details of what I think exactly but as usual, you're welcome to pop into my stream and ask me and I'll happily answer

Oh noes I called someone out for never having played a faction in the balance forum

That's like trying to have an opinion on starcraft balance, and literally never played zerg, and only having 2 games played as terran (USF)

I never "laughed at his pathetic player card" like you just "laughed" at mine, I pointed out he has 0 games as OKW when he tried to talk about volksgrenadiers.

If you're going to use your power here to try and shout me down for pointing out one of your friends is clearly talking out of his ass, then let me know so I can just avoid wasting my time making constructive threads here

Conscripts may not scale well, but AT nades certainly do.

Conscripts may not scale well, but AT nades certainly do.

It seems clear that conscripts down't scale. Stand some vet3 cons in cover with some vet0 Pfusiliers, or Obers and you'll quickly see how scaleless they are. Late game they are only useable as cannonfodder, molotov platforms, AT nade platofrms, reinforcers.

BUT

They are cheap early game with very cheap reinforce and some useful abilities. They allow you to have MGs and infantry at the same time. They allow you to have a cheap capping/de-capping unit.

They are pretty valuable for their low price in the early game. Maybe it's enough?



Still, I'd rather see scaled cons than buffed penals. Penals come in the same tier as snipers. Buffed penals + snipers would hurt balance.

Hey Ninja,

Yes, I do believe Conscripts need better scaling towards the later stages of the game but one which would allow Penals to have a role to fulfil. I liked the suggestions of making Conscripts be upgraded via the T3/T4 building to reduce their upkeep slightly and giving Penals some love to bridge the gap between Elite Infantry (Shocks / Guards) and Conscripts.

I am at work now so I don't wish to go into too many details of what I think exactly but as usual, you're welcome to pop into my stream and ask me and I'll happily answer

Sorry but wouldn't this require some changes to Shocks and Guards as well? I am really curious what kind of scaling do you have in mind as it is my understanding that Cons current state it's an outcome of design choice.
Popular reference to Volks doesn't quite fit here as they only scale in form of survivability rather than overall performance. Sure they got Shrecks but first of all they only have one piece of this equipment and second of all they're lacking any form of vehicle snare (which is only available to OKW through doctrinal infantry.). I ma not talking about the subject of Vet5 as I believe this is an OKW specific feature and it applies to all OKW units.
When playing Soviets I have been always using Cons as utility unit late game rather than main fighting force, unless equipped with doctrinal PPSH, relying solely on Shocks and Guards to do the heavy lifting. I mean as pointed out before merge itself is a very potent ability that allowed me to save a unit or a weapon platform and simply stay on the battlefield and fight, retreating and reinforcing a Cons squad instead.
I guess my biggest concern is that when Cons will be scaling late game then this may cause some serious balance issues since we will be facing a strong 6 men squad backed up by very strong Elite infantry. I mean Shocks are pain to deal with as they are right now (NOT saying they are OP btw). I fear that this combination would simply be too strong.
Even when you consider other factions "elite " squads they're usually four men (with some exception) which kind of make them vulnerable to counters. After all it's easier for T-34 to kill a Gren squad than for PzIV to finish off a squad of Cons.

To be honest I would love to see something done to Penals as right now they are this weird unit that serves no purpose. In my opinion anyway.

It seems clear that conscripts down't scale. Stand some vet3 cons in cover with some vet0 Pfusiliers, or Obers and you'll quickly see how scaleless they are. Late game they are only useable as cannonfodder, molotov platforms, AT nade platofrms, reinforcers.

BUT

They are cheap early game with very cheap reinforce and some useful abilities. They allow you to have MGs and infantry at the same time. They allow you to have a cheap capping/de-capping unit.

They are pretty valuable for their low price in the early game. Maybe it's enough?



Still, I'd rather see scaled cons than buffed penals. Penals come in the same tier as snipers. Buffed penals + snipers would hurt balance.

Can somebody help me understand where this idea that cons are ''cheap'' infantry comes from? I mean they cost the same as grenadiers at 240MP a pop. 20 to reinforce 20x5 = 100 MP while grens at 30 to reinforce comes out at a max of 90 to return to full combat capability. Even if you are looking at 50% squads (when most people like to retreat) then it's 60 for cons and 60 for grens. Volks on the other hand are 235MP to produce and 24 to reinforce coming out at a maximum of 96 MP to reinforce.

Also if we talk about roles both Grens and Volks prefer to fight at long range and if you are smart they will be in cover, cons ideally want to get in close where they do their best. Guess which squad is going to be losing the most men?

Now riflemen are a bit different at 280 MP, I don't think anyone has a problem with them (at least on the allied side haha) as they scale nicely thanks to weapon upgrades.

Right now conscripts are punching bags and utility squads in late game. As everything around them becomes more lethal in comparison they don't do much else than cap points and throw the odd at nade or molo. The reason this is such a problem is because cons are basic staple infantry so you will have 2 or 3 squads generally. Late game they start taking up valuable pop and start to drain your MP and it's almost worth losing them so you can make room for something better.

As a side note I have seen many complain that Soviets don't seem to suffer from losing Cons, this is mostly true as vet 0 vs. vet 3 doesn't really matter late game as they aren't going to be doing much anyway. So who cares if you lose the squad just make another, you won't notice that much of a difference (Obviously you should try to conserve squads, I always try to keep squads alive.) This might be part of the reason Axis are more ''fun'' to play, you are rewarded more for keeping your units alive.

I agree cons with DP-28 upgrade.

Silver Sage basically hit the hammer on the head, but rather than adding constructive input that would be shot down by bass ackwards logic, I'll just sit back and continue to enjoy the show.

Sorry but wouldn't this require some changes to Shocks and Guards as well? I am really curious what kind of scaling do you have in mind as it is my understanding that Cons current state it's an outcome of design choice.
Popular reference to Volks doesn't quite fit here as they only scale in form of survivability rather than overall performance. Sure they got Shrecks but first of all they only have one piece of this equipment and second of all they're lacking any form of vehicle snare (which is only available to OKW through doctrinal infantry.). I ma not talking about the subject of Vet5 as I believe this is an OKW specific feature and it applies to all OKW units.
When playing Soviets I have been always using Cons as utility unit late game rather than main fighting force, unless equipped with doctrinal PPSH, relying solely on Shocks and Guards to do the heavy lifting. I mean as pointed out before merge itself is a very potent ability that allowed me to save a unit or a weapon platform and simply stay on the battlefield and fight, retreating and reinforcing a Cons squad instead.
I guess my biggest concern is that when Cons will be scaling late game then this may cause some serious balance issues since we will be facing a strong 6 men squad backed up by very strong Elite infantry. I mean Shocks are pain to deal with as they are right now (NOT saying they are OP btw). I fear that this combination would simply be too strong.
Even when you consider other factions "elite " squads they're usually four men (with some exception) which kind of make them vulnerable to counters. After all it's easier for T-34 to kill a Gren squad than for PzIV to finish off a squad of Cons.

To be honest I would love to see something done to Penals as right now they are this weird unit that serves no purpose. In my opinion anyway.

don't worry, i don't think anyone wants to buff cons to the point whee they can a-move and destroy everyone. Changes will obviously come to other units to help smooth things out. I think the concept behind buffing cons is that they are the main fighting force of USSR (their descriptions says they are the core of the Soviet army). They should be useful late gae and not just utility units.

obviously, you are bound to replace your crappier units for elite units, but cons supposed to be the heart of USSR and are built early in the game in somewhat significant numbers (2-3). Thshould be some kind of reward for keeping these units alive and vetted. When people say they are good meat shields, this is kind of silly. Other units die as well just like conscripts. Conscripts are also very fragile even with vet3.

Buffing cons with dps is a very bad idea as it will lead to con spam. and ignore what katitof is saying because the cons are the most flexible unit in the game having a ton of useful abilities that makes them useful during the entire game.

the first issue for the soviets are the weapons profiles. in my opinion lmg's are not over performing its the smg's and assault rifles that are underperforming. both weapon profiles need to be increased to 100 % fotm. this makes shocks and ppsh scripts a lot more viable.

if their is to be a lmg upgrade then it should be the penals that receive them. this prevents spam as penals are not as flexible as the scripts

Buffing cons with dps is a very bad idea as it will lead to con spam. and ignore what katitof is saying because the cons are the most flexible unit in the game having a ton of useful abilities that makes them useful during the entire game.

Merge. This is one single thing that grenadiers can't do better.
Nades? Grens can safely launch theirs from the safety of the cover and without side costs.
AT? Grens are superior here with pfaust haveing much greater penetration and again, with a total side costs of zero.
Oorah you say? Tactical maneuvers I will reply and there is a commander on the way with sprint for all german inf, MGs and mortars including.
Weapon upgrades? Hands down grens win on variety and flexibility here.
And now, as the cherry on the cake, grens can have stun nades and ambush camo.
What can cons do? Repair sometimes. But grens can build themselves defensive/forward reinforcement post.

Sorry, but when it comes to being most flexible, grens outperform cons in that with everything.

Merge is no excuse for anything as merging still forces the squad off the field.

the first issue for the soviets are the weapons profiles. in my opinion lmg's are not over performing its the smg's and assault rifles that are underperforming. both weapon profiles need to be increased to 100 % fotm. this makes shocks and ppsh scripts a lot more viable.

if their is to be a lmg upgrade then it should be the penals that receive them. this prevents spam as penals are not as flexible as the scripts

The only assault rifles are StG44 on axis side and they are far from underperforming given they are still effective at maximum range(more effective then cons mosins by almost 1 DPS given all squad members fire).

Off topic but what you guys think of upgrading the Penals to Guards upon reaching vet 3 for a price. They will keep their SVT. I remember I read about a penal battalion soldier who was promoted to a Guards Colonel for bravery in the face of the enemy. Let me find the article on the man.

Jump back to quoted post27 Aug 2014, 09:38 AMJaigen

Buffing cons with dps is a very bad idea as it will lead to con spam. and ignore what katitof is saying because the cons are the most flexible unit in the game having a ton of useful abilities that makes them useful during the entire game.

Merge. This is one single thing that grenadiers can't do better.
Nades? Grens can safely launch theirs from the safety of the cover and without side costs.
AT? Grens are superior here with pfaust haveing much greater penetration and again, with a total side costs of zero.
Oorah you say? Tactical maneuvers I will reply and there is a commander on the way with sprint for all german inf, MGs and mortars including.
Weapon upgrades? Hands down grens win on variety and flexibility here.
And now, as the cherry on the cake, grens can have stun nades and ambush camo.
What can cons do? Repair sometimes. But grens can build themselves defensive/forward reinforcement post.

Sorry, but when it comes to being most flexible, grens outperform cons in that with everything.

Merge is no excuse for anything as merging still forces the squad off the field.

the first issue for the soviets are the weapons profiles. in my opinion lmg's are not over performing its the smg's and assault rifles that are underperforming. both weapon profiles need to be increased to 100 % fotm. this makes shocks and ppsh scripts a lot more viable.

if their is to be a lmg upgrade then it should be the penals that receive them. this prevents spam as penals are not as flexible as the scripts

The only assault rifles are StG44 on axis side and they are far from underperforming given they are still effective at maximum range(more effective then cons mosins by almost 1 DPS given all squad members fire).

Thats like your opinion and as usually you behave like a totally biased ignoramus so im not going to bother replying to it.

Off topic but what you guys think of upgrading the Penals to Guards upon reaching vet 3 for a price. They will keep their SVT. I remember I read about a penal battalion soldier who was promoted to a Guards Colonel for bravery in the face of the enemy. Let me find the article on the man.

What would be the point of it? It would only create more headaches for balancing.

Thats like your opinion and as usually you behave like a totally biased ignoramus so im not going to bother replying to it.

Ok, will remember for the future that if presented with reasonable arguments you'll just cover your ears, close your eyes and proceed being as dense as JT front armor.

Would also love to see a single reason why what you've written before makes you believe that it wasn't just yours biased opinion as opposed to you I have written examples of why you are (yet and yet and yet again) completely and utterly wrong.

What would be the point of it? It would only create more headaches for balancing.

You should be rewarded for keeping suicide troops alive until vet 3 right? In exchange maybe make them vet slower.

You should be rewarded for keeping suicide troops alive until vet 3 right? In exchange maybe make them vet slower.

I need a bit more then this. is this change going to be just cosmetic or has it impact on how the former penals are going to behave. i also doubt the engine can handle such a change.

I honestly don't understand some people here.

They don't want buffs to conscripts OR penals yet they want nerfs to soviet snipers and maxims.

Currently, the backbone and bulk of the soviet army is pretty much snipers and maxims.

Nerfing them would leave the soviet army with no backbone or bulk.
Because soviet infantry in this game for some reason was stripped of all its training and weapons.


Tbh, this is the problem with soviets i feel.

You see, back in coh 1, all sides had decent non doctrinal INF. wehr had grenadiers or KCH, PE had panzergrenadiers, brits had infantry section, and USA had bar RIFLES with veterancy.

Now in coh 2, ALL sides have decent non doctrinal infantry, except soviets.
Even the top, best long range infantry in the game, gaurds, are slightly outmatched by lmg grens...