OKW Puma

I don't get the argument that OKW NEEDS the Puma. It has shrecks on a durable, cheap unit. The Raketen actually does its job if you aren't on a hilly map. The Jagdpanzer is an excellent tank destroyer that can beat IS-2s if supported a bit and shits all over medium tanks that can't flank it (hello shrecks). I never have any problem fighting off medium tanks as OKW unless I've been pushed off the map and denied fuel. The Puma just makes it even easier, properly microed you can need no other vehicle until you break out the KT/Panther/Jagdtiger. Hell, I'm pretty certain OKW actually has the best non-doctrinal midgame AT of all 4 factions. Raketen is not as good as other AT guns, but requires no teching, can garrison and can retreat. Once it's tendency to fire at the ground is fixed it's a fine unit.

I mean, going from playing OKW to US, it's incredible how different they are. US is a faction that has absolutely shit midgame AT. All you have are bazookas which can't pen anything bigger than a StuG and cost fuel to get, AT guns that you need to spend ammo for them to be good (and massively delaying your teching to T4 in the process of getting them), and... that's it. Stuart is only good for its abilities, I'd trade it with the Puma in a heartbeat. Until they get the micro-intensive Jackson, US AT in general is far inferior to OKW's.

I just don't see the problem. OKW is in my opinion the last faction that really needs a unit like the Puma. Doesn't mean it should be removed or anything, but a small nerf wouldn't hurt it overmuch. Just nerf its penetration a bit, it should be a flanking vehicle, yet it can reliably pen the frontal armor of medium tanks that come much later.

The midgame AT capabilities are not the only feature which make the Puma such an indespensable unit for OKW. It's also basically the only armor OKW can field til late game. Jagdpanzer is too situational and expensive to go for it, it'll cost you games when facing inf spam tactics. Flak HT is run by clowns right now. And thats it. Puma is the only way to be offensive in OKW midgame, forcing the allied player to deal with armor, fighting weapon teams, snipers etc. Its basically the OKWs allround medium tank with lower AI abilities to compensate for its early availability.

Without any armor on the ground, and the Raketenjoke, OKW wont be able to survive til late game.

US is a whole different ballgame. In the US OKW matchup, theres not much armor to deal with for the US player until lategame, and then he has tankhunters + at guns + zooks. I cant speak for the OH matchup though cause I lack experience. But I'd generally say that having a viable AT gun is always a safety net. And how is 270mp a "massive delay" of your tech? Its a cheap insurance for any german medium armor coming along. Or are you the one player worldwide who's playing without a Captain?

Puma have long range(50), where OKW player can use his longer shoot range with 80 penetration value. This is not to much, in closer range, med, has 120 penetration, this is avg. value, and at close range 160 pen value, what is very decent for a heavy armored car, yes, BUT, in med/close range, where the pumas armor penetration can penetrate with good chance, the enemy MED tanks can fire back, they are in shoot range too(40) with 100% penetrated hit, because puma has shit armor, and enemy med tanks alltime penetrate puma. If you want KITE as OKW with your puma, and hold the distance(and you want, because your hp and armor far weaker than a med tanks), puma penetration is ONLY 80!, even the hated SU76 have better penetration--->90, and +10 shoot range too(60 max), so i dont really know why people want PUMA nerf vs med tanks. PUMA desperately need in OKW mid game, dont touch this unit, fine in current state.

The midgame AT capabilities are not the only feature which make the Puma such an indespensable unit for OKW. It's also basically the only armor OKW can field til late game. Jagdpanzer is too situational and expensive to go for it, it'll cost you games when facing inf spam tactics. Flak HT is run by clowns right now. And thats it. Puma is the only way to be offensive in OKW midgame, forcing the allied player to deal with armor, fighting weapon teams, snipers etc. Its basically the OKWs allround medium tank with lower AI abilities to compensate for its early availability.

Without any armor on the ground, and the Raketenjoke, OKW wont be able to survive til late game.

US is a whole different ballgame. In the US OKW matchup, theres not much armor to deal with for the US player until lategame, and then he has tankhunters + at guns + zooks. I cant speak for the OH matchup though cause I lack experience. But I'd generally say that having a viable AT gun is always a safety net. And how is 270mp a "massive delay" of your tech? Its a cheap insurance for any german medium armor coming along. Or are you the one player worldwide who's playing without a Captain?

I do play without captain against OKW if I can get away with it, since the AT you get there is pretty impotent against their vehicles anyway. AT gun is not very useful against puma (smoke + natural speed), won't pen a Jagd, and the captain himself is not amazing thanks to zook's average penetration. And of course the Stuart is not really good with all the shrecks running around unless you babysit it.

In general, if I'm forced to go captain against OKW, it means I've lost the early game, which means I've almost certainly lost the game period.

The US-OH matchup is sometimes worse. AT guns + captain can keep the StuG/P4 at bay, but you're always at a disadvantage armor wise until you can get your Jackson on the field.

US is VERY reliant on winning the early game and pushing your advantage. If you can't do that, you're in a very bad position because you don't get actual, solid AT until the Jackson is out. Their midgame AT situation is far worse than OKW's, which is why I think the reasoning doesn't really work. Shrecks alone are better AT than anything the US can get until they buy the Major, and the raketen and 57mm are pretty equal sans the lower range.

Again, I don't think the Puma is crazy OP. But it's a very powerful unit that you don't have much reason to not buy, and its speed + smoke makes it crazy survivable for a unit that comes this early. I should know, there's nary an OKW game where I don't build it.

I do play without captain against OKW if I can get away with it, since the AT you get there is pretty impotent against their vehicles anyway. AT gun is not very useful against puma (smoke + natural speed), won't pen a Jagd

people are way too quick to write off the american AT gun. its amazing with vet. 70 range, forward sight and AP rounds are amazing. AP rounds and vet 3 give a total bonus of 95% to its pen.

thats 224-273 pen depending on range. compare that to a vet 3 pak, which has 247-273 pen.

people are way too quick to write off the american AT gun. its amazing with vet. 70 range, forward sight and AP rounds are amazing. AP rounds and vet 3 give a total bonus of 95% to its pen.

thats 224-273 pen depending on range. compare that to a vet 3 pak, which has 247-273 pen.

and such units vet up quickly

Here is the issue. you are teching up all the way to tier 3 to get a t-34 out which the puma is supposed to counter. its like saying that a ostheer player is getting a panther out to counter an at gun. also i dont believe for a moment anybody will ever lose a supported at gun to a puma.

This is a fairly good illustration of why the Puma is too good though.

It comes before all enemy tech and handles everything that the allies tend to tech towards.

Soviet Tier 3: Counters the M5 Halftrack, counters the T-70, soft-counters the T-34.
Soviet Tier 4: Hard counters the SU-76. One of the most ideal units to pick off a Katyusha due to speed, smoke, vision range and accuracy. One of the best flankers against an SU-85.

For the US Forces it's much the same. It hard counters everything in LT tech, has a hefty advantage over the Stuart and soft-counters all of Major tech. Even something such as the Jackson vs the Puma can come down to a coinflip of accuracy and flanking.

It always will appear before any armor that does show up and it's veterancy scales it up to a ridiculous degree.

There's no reason to not rush out a Puma. That's problematic.

There's no reason to not rush out a Puma. That's problematic.

I think the problem is compounded further by the lack of any decent infantry AT. The puma is far too agile to chase down reliably with bazookas or guards.

This is a fairly good illustration of why the Puma is too good though.

It comes before all enemy tech and handles everything that the allies tend to tech towards.

Soviet Tier 3: Counters the M5 Halftrack, counters the T-70, soft-counters the T-34.
Soviet Tier 4: Hard counters the SU-76. One of the most ideal units to pick off a Katyusha due to speed, smoke, vision range and accuracy. One of the best flankers against an SU-85.

For the US Forces it's much the same. It hard counters everything in LT tech, has a hefty advantage over the Stuart and soft-counters all of Major tech. Even something such as the Jackson vs the Puma can come down to a coinflip of accuracy and flanking.

It always will appear before any armor that does show up and it's veterancy scales it up to a ridiculous degree.

There's no reason to not rush out a Puma. That's problematic.

So you are saying that a tank destroying is not supposed to destroy tanks?

I'm saying an armored car tank destroyer shouldn't counter every tank that one can conceivably build with tech. Not as well as it does.

While also having more health than light tanks and smoke at Vet0. While also arriving at ~6-7 minutes into the game.

It has so many perks going for it.

It comes before all enemy tech and handles everything that the allies tend to tech towards.

....

There's no reason to not rush out a Puma. That's problematic.

im going to have to disagree a bit. first of all, i dont think a counter coming out before a unit is inherently a problem. in fact, i think counters should come out first. i know this is an extreme example, but imagine tanks coming out before AT guns. in fact, the wc51 coming before counters is part of the problem with that unit (i dont want to get into building a 1 minute raketen).

also, i disagree that theres no reason not to rush a puma. its a matter of opportunity cost. rushing a puma against an infantry and AT gun heavy army is a complete waste. the better option is obviously going to be the walking stuka. when playing allies, im not worried by pumas at all if they show up when i have no vehicles. i actually like to see it because it poses little to no threat. harassing infantry with it is a high risk and low reward because of its cost.

ill repeat, i think its problem is its ridiculous speed combined with smoke.

Soviet Tier 4: Hard counters the SU-76.

Who the hell builds SU76, but in theory wouldn´t the Su76 be a soft counter to Pumas? Pens every time, better RoF and cheap ? The fact that the puma needs 3 shots and the Su76 4 is a problem though.

im going to have to disagree a bit. first of all, i dont think a counter coming out before a unit is inherently a problem. in fact, i think counters should come out first. i know this is an extreme example, but imagine tanks coming out before AT guns. in fact, the wc51 coming before counters is part of the problem with that unit (i dont want to get into building a 1 minute raketen).

also, i disagree that theres no reason not to rush a puma. its a matter of opportunity cost. rushing a puma against an infantry and AT gun heavy army is a complete waste. the better option is obviously going to be the walking stuka. when playing allies, im not worried by pumas at all if they show up when i have no vehicles. i actually like to see it because it poses little to no threat. harassing infantry with it is a high risk and low reward because of its cost.

ill repeat, i think its problem is its ridiculous speed combined with smoke.

Sure. It depends on what you're seeing and what you're afraid of. There's always an opportunity cost.

Perhaps the better way to put it is that the Puma is a ridiculously safe start that has little to no way of backfiring. It's still valuable against infantry-heavy forces.

I think we're arguing around each other though. While I think you could nerf it's penetration to help out I'd prefer to nerf the smoke first and foremost.

edit: Also, counters that come out before what they're supposed to counter is great as long as it is a soft counter that has weaknesses. AT guns have weaknesses. They can be flanked. They can't do anything against infantry. They're slow and can't chase. They need support.

The Puma is hard counter to light vehicles that has durability, speed and smoke to avoid anything that could possibly counter it early game. What hard counter comes out before it does though? Like a real hard counter that can chase it down and kill it? No such thing. The closest thing is a demo-charge or M20 Utility Car mine. S'abit different though.

Hard counters shouldn't arrive before the unit they counter. An Jagdtiger shouldn't arrive before a T-34. Hell, the Jagdtiger counters T-34 less than the Puma counters the M20.

i think the main issue is that you can bring it out too early in the game. I often see pumas about the time other players start bringing in halftracks and scout cars. Its a very strong counter to light vehicles, and it fairs well against tanks, and a smart choice against infantry that you see a lot of in the early game.

It just covers so many bases and its available as a starting mid game unit.

I have no specific recomendation for balance, but it is easily the best light vehicle and better than some of the starting tanks.

Puma is a good unit, most agree

However Its a little too survivable for the cost compared to other units in the same price range, with both smoke AND 80 more HP than is typical of units in the 70 fuel area. Nerfing one of these two things would probably be sufficient to balance the unit


Another specific aspect of the puma that is questionable is how Smoke cancels guards button immediatley. Idk if this needs to be changed but it seems very strong and silly that 40 munition button vehicle(which requires a 70 munition upgrade) is useless because of a 30 munition ability you get default. Then again the puma would likely die otherwise in many instances and that might be no fun

Basically its a little too survivable for the cost and timing. The damage doesn't strike me as too strong, just that it gets alot of shots because it is hard to kill

Put your AT guys behind your Shermans/Ez8/Jacksons/Inf scuad.
You're welcome.

So you are saying that a tank destroying is not supposed to destroy tanks?

You do know that kind of reasoning could be used to justify any and all overperforming units, right? A sniper that could shoot across the entire map and through obstacles is balanced, after all, because it's sniping people?

I don't actually think the Puma is as incredibly good as some claim. At worst it needs a penetration or survivability nerf. But your rebuttal is not a convincing one.

people are way too quick to write off the american AT gun. its amazing with vet. 70 range, forward sight and AP rounds are amazing. AP rounds and vet 3 give a total bonus of 95% to its pen.

thats 224-273 pen depending on range. compare that to a vet 3 pak, which has 247-273 pen.

Yeah, that is my feelings too, Wooof...

Perhaps strange for many players, my AT guns choice : 1. US AT gun, 2. Pupchen, 3. Pak, 4. ZIS... US AT gun s have 1.5x armor piercing buff for cheap 30 muni, for 30 sec/30 cooldown, a vet1 SUPERB ability, with 70 shoot range, and 60+ sight, later again +30% penetration with vet, and all AT gun give his maximum vet relative quick...

This give you a amazing AT gun solution for 270mp, vs all HEAVY, and i mean, real HEAVY armor target too, from a distance of half map, in a avarage 1v1 map...

US AT gun with vet and APCR FTW. I feel, here in Coh2.org, have some people who can shape the mood of whole community, and the mass after this repeated all time what his leader saying, without zero/not to much knowledge the game core system... I see a lots people crying for US AT gun cant penetrate a P4 with good succes, i start with him talk on game chat, and later i see he not know either the armor piercing/armor formula, or the role of the distance etc...

I think the problem is compounded further by the lack of any decent infantry AT. The puma is far too agile to chase down reliably with bazookas or guards.

IMO all infantry with AT weapon used from cover/garrison, can scare away/kill Puma, people overestimate the PUMA AI power simply, this is not a t34/sherman vs inf...

PUMA gun vs inf is a nothing, coaxical mg is avarage, but VS OPEN terrain short - mid range exposed/injured enemy soldiers. IF you want kill a healthy 5-6 member US-SU squad from green cover, or House, your PUMA need 2min rest...

This is a fairly good illustration of why the Puma is too good though.

It comes before all enemy tech and handles everything that the allies tend to tech towards.

Soviet Tier 3: Counters the M5 Halftrack, counters the T-70, soft-counters the T-34.
Soviet Tier 4: Hard counters the SU-76. One of the most ideal units to pick off a Katyusha due to speed, smoke, vision range and accuracy. One of the best flankers against an SU-85.

For the US Forces it's much the same. It hard counters everything in LT tech, has a hefty advantage over the Stuart and soft-counters all of Major tech. Even something such as the Jackson vs the Puma can come down to a coinflip of accuracy and flanking.

It always will appear before any armor that does show up and it's veterancy scales it up to a ridiculous degree.

There's no reason to not rush out a Puma. That's problematic.

Just my opinon, THE community hated/negligated/underrated SU76 is can handle PUMA fair enough, for his price, su 76 is a soft countered the puma... I dont know, how many people realized here, the SU 76 has 240mp/70F price, and Puma cost in SU res. system 320Mp/100 F, SU 76 has better armor, better range, same damage, BETTER armor penetration at longer shoot distance, at 60 range with 90 piercing vale, with 120 damge, PUMA only can same 120 damage, at shorter 50 max range, with lesser armor piercing value, only 80. Both unit very quick, and agile. Puma have coaxical mg, SU have free barrage ability. A protected(Guards is the easy way, AT naded concript is enough too) SU 76 can Kite the shit out of PUMA... But i know, the community mood here say: SU 76 is a shit unit, Puma with lesser range/and penetration/higher price OP vs med tanks, need shorter range and/or penetreation reduction, ok then ...

Just my opinon, THE community hated/negligated/underrated SU76 is can handle PUMA fair enough, for his price, su 76 is a soft countered the puma... I dont know, how many people realized here, the SU 76 has 240mp/70F price, and Puma cost in SU res. system 320Mp/100 F, SU 76 has better armor, better range, same damage, BETTER armor penetration at longer shoot distance, at 60 range with 90 piercing vale, with 120 damge, PUMA only can same 120 damage, at shorter 50 max range, with lesser armor piercing value, only 80. Both unit very quick, and agile. Puma have coaxical mg, SU have free barrage ability. A protected(Guards is the easy way, AT naded concript is enough too) SU 76 can Kite the shit out of PUMA... But i know, the community mood here say: SU 76 is a shit unit, Puma with lesser range/and penetration/higher price OP vs med tanks, need shorter range and/or penetreation reduction, ok then ...

SU-76 also comes from a completely different tier, only has 320hp, has absolutely zero anti inf direct fire potential, barrage is quite easy to avoid, and lacks a turret making it very hard for it to use it's range advantage.

Puma completely hardcounters soviet T4.