OKW Puma

I do feel Puma performs very well and I'm kind of with Barton on the subject on the other hand I fear that any changes done to this unit would cripple OKW faction even more.

I do feel Puma performs very well and I'm kind of with Barton on the subject on the other hand I fear that any changes done to this unit would cripple OKW faction even more.

OKW is in the best spot of all right now.
Soviets need to rely on cheese vs OKW and are very call in dependent.
US Forces? Rush out Kübel, Rush out Puma, Spam infantry. Done.
Ostheer has one viable strat and that is Grens with 1 MG, then T2 with maybe 1 PGren + 1 Pak into Tiger.

OKW has plenty of choices. For example, a rushed out Puma completely denies US T2. And nobody goes for Captain anyways.

In my eyes, in terms of options OKW really does shine.

You get to choose to go either T1 or T2 (just like soviets) and you can get both of them (unlike soviets).

Or you can not tech up to T3 or T2 at all and just rely on jagpanzers (altho not usually the best idea)

You can go mg34s, falshirmajagers, obersoldaten, panzerfusiliers.

You can go pumas, panthers, king tigers ( usually not the best idea) or whatever.

You basically get to rush whatever light vehicle you want. A flak halftrack, stuka or a puma. No circumstances are going to deny you to get these vehicles.

OKW vs US matchup :

OKW build order : Kübel, Volks, Volks, Volks, Puma ...
US build order : Rifle, Rifle, Rifle, Rifle, LT into M20

Kübel fucks up US early game. US struggles to kill Kübel and gets M20 to kill it. Kübel dies. Puma comes and kills M20. OKW spams more elite infantry, preferably Jaegers. US tries to counter infantry. OKW spams more infantry and Puma keeps shooting and occasionally sniping infantry. gg.

Theres no reason to NOT rush out a Puma vs US.

Try out US build order this: rifle rifle rifle bazooka, LT, M20 while you put mines on choke point, and try flank/AT rifle naded with vet1 rifles his vehicles, but i like the Capitan tech tree instead of LT, AT guns with Stuart is a good combo too... Kübel would be dead, Puma pushed away/dead, later if OKW spam elite inf, you upgrade your Rifles with BAR, or the better doctrinal M1919 lmg, or doctrinal paratroopers with lmg...

OKW is in the best spot of all right now.
Soviets need to rely on cheese vs OKW and are very call in dependent.
US Forces? Rush out Kübel, Rush out Puma, Spam infantry. Done.
Ostheer has one viable strat and that is Grens with 1 MG, then T2 with maybe 1 PGren + 1 Pak into Tiger.

OKW has plenty of choices. For example, a rushed out Puma completely denies US T2. And nobody goes for Captain anyways.

Sorry but no. OKW is the weakest of all the factions.

Saying that Soviet need to rely on cheese is an over statement as well. Maybe in low level 3v3 mode play. The truth is Soviet are very strong in all of the modes.

I agree Puma is overperforming. Its such a cool unit, and so fun to use, but also micro intensive (but who doesnt like to micro a Puma! ), that it can be easy to lose sight that it really does everything a bit too well.

However, as I said before, Id prefer if its damage profle was what is nerfed, rather than its survival profile.

OKW fuel income differential is too important to ignore in terms of the heightened vehicle retention importance.

I think Puma shouldnt be as dangerous offensively as it is atm, OKW anyways is very good at biding its time, and Puma is still, even with a reduced damage profile, such an excellent little vehicle, that its ok that it takes a little longer to fulfill its offensive purposes, a little less efficiently. But I do think it needs to retain its survival potential.

Its a little too capable of opportunistic action atm, due to its quite good damage profile, in conjunction with its "gtfo" nature and mobility. I really think just reducing its offensive capabilities a bit, will make it less of a threat, without having to nerf its survival.

Know what I mean?

Sorry but no. OKW is the weakest of all the factions.

Saying that Soviet need to rely on cheese is an over statement as well. Maybe in low level 3v3 mode play. The truth is Soviet are very strong in all of the modes.

I'm at a fairly high level as 1v1 Soviet and the only way I know to beat OKW as Soviets is by cheesing. I lost 8 games in a row when I was trying more normal builds.

I agree Puma is overperforming. Its such a cool unit, and so fun to use, but also micro intensive (but who doesnt like to micro a Puma! ), that it can be easy to lose sight that it really does everything a bit too well.

However, as I said before, Id prefer if its damage profle was what is nerfed, rather than its survival profile.

OKW fuel income differential is too important to ignore in terms of the heightened vehicle retention importance.

I think Puma shouldnt be as dangerous offensively as it is atm, OKW anyways is very good at biding its time, and Puma is still, even with a reduced damage profile, such an excellent little vehicle, that its ok that it takes a little longer to fulfill its offensive purposes, a little less efficiently. But I do think it needs to retain its survival potential.

Its a little too capable of opportunistic action atm, due to its quite good damage profile, in conjunction with its "gtfo" nature and mobility. I really think just reducing its offensive capabilities a bit, will make it less of a threat, without having to nerf its survival.

Know what I mean?

Puma overperforming vs what units? Infantry? Heavy tanks? If you said, overperforming vs med tanks, i think, that is the pumas role, KILL med tanks, with good micro, some people dont realize this, puma has rola same, the little brother for Jackson... Puma is a glass cannon too, can be harass, kite to med tanks to death yes, but nothing have against AT guns, heavy tanks, and AT infanty...

IF puma role isnt kill t34-shermans, then what? For a vehicle, who can scouting, i NEVER paid 320mp, and 100 Fuel, for this purpose, OKW have kübel, or counter for ONLY light vehicle, as a russian M3, M5, t70, and US AA HT, maybe Stuart(but if puma get some decent nerf, Stuart will be pretty even)... The OKW faction, without a unit, like puma, what can provide some mid tank defense, the gap vs the ONLY light vehicles counter, and first panther, is so Huge, you cant cover all your army with pupchen. Puma need micro now too, and proper play, with decreased damage or penetration, im not sure, he can be the mid game solution vs med tanks spam from RUS t3... Jagdpanzer 4 maybe the solution if Puma get nerf, it is fine unit, but not now with his price, simply can outmassed with t34 easy, and his 135 Fuel price, in russian resource system 192.85 fuel, almost 2 t34, and you get for this price zero AI power...

I'm at a fairly high level as 1v1 Soviet and the only way I know to beat OKW as Soviets is by cheesing. I lost 8 games in a row when I was trying more normal builds.

This is SAD, but true... Conscript build, Conscript - Penal mix, or Penal build simple dont work, need better basic, non doctrinal SU infantry power. Now, the best what SU player can do, Sniper M3, or maxim mortar while ST or Guards coming. I want decent SU basic inf too, or good mixed army for Russian.

Bump time. I just did some learning about the Puma. Turns out there is a pretty large difference between the OST and OKW Puma's.

Raw stats for the OKW Puma
Raw stats for the OST Puma

• OKW Puma accelerates faster (4.5 vs 2.5)
  
• OST Puma has a greater extended sight radius (70 vs 35)
  
• The OKW Puma uses weapons specific for it, the OST Puma uses the P IV.
  

The more you know.

OST Puma is better?

Bump time. I just did some learning about the Puma. Turns out there is a pretty large difference between the OST and OKW Puma's.

Raw stats for the OKW Puma
Raw stats for the OST Puma

• OKW Puma accelerates faster (4.5 vs 2.5)
  
• OST Puma has a greater extended sight radius (70 vs 35)
  
• The OKW Puma uses weapons specific for it, the OST Puma uses the P IV.
  

Pretty big differences there.

The more you know.

Speed difference, the gun is the same though. Be careful not to get "Name" mixed up with "File name". "Name" is often incorrect because guns are frequently based off other similar weapons, but they don't always change the "Name" when they make a new file.

For Example:

OKW Puma Gun:
Name: 5cm KwK 39 L/60 (Puma)
File name: dkfz_234_puma_kwk39_5cm_mp.xml

OH Puma Gun:
Name: Kwk40 75mm Tank Gun (Panzer IV)
File name: puma_50mm_mp.xml


Extended site range I've never figured out, so I can't comment on that.

You are right Someguy. Good catch! I've revised my post. Max speed seems to be the same at 7.5 though.

The vet is kinda dumb. Really overperforming against Jacksons and SU-85's especially. I'd love to see that ability moved to a later vet and move something else to vet1 instead.

I'm okay with the Puma being as strong as it is, it's desperately trying to make up for OKW's lack of hard-hitting AT and the lack of a Medium Tank.

nerf the sight on the puma. Its long range is a problem since it can spot for itself

I don't fully understand "extended sight range" either. My intuition is that is the maximum that the unit can achieve by itself.

For instance. The SU-76. It has an extended sight radius of 70 but I think most players will agree that they aren't very good spotters! At Vet 1 though they do get Tracking which presumably increases their sight range to 70. Thus 70 represents their maximum sight range.

It's probably the same for the Puma here.

Take a look at the vet bonuses:

SdKfz 234 Puma:
Vet1: Ability
Vet2: -20% reload, +20% accuracy
Vet3: +20% rotation speed, +20% max speed, + 33% damage (120 => 160)
Vet4: +5 weapon range
Vet5: Extended_sight_enable, Enemy reveal in 35 radius

... vet 5 probably increases it's vision from 50 to 70 while giving it a special ability that detects units through vision blockers as well.

So I played with the OST Puma last night. That acceleration really matters to be able to get out of a fight. I'd encourage anybody here calling for a nerf to the OKW Puma to hop into the OST one and compare the units survivability.

If a faction's ability to compete is contingent on the performance of a single unit, then there is a very serious design flaw.