you are right, if soviet/us gets 25fuel/min, the okw equivalent is 25 * 0.66 = 16.5. okw will then need 4.24mins to save 70 fuel. the equivalent for soviet fuel rate in 4.24mins = approx 106 fuel. my apologies.
still im not ashamed because my point still stands, we are talking about a massive 225 - 105 = 120 fuel difference, care to refute that instead?
Here is the issue. you are teching up all the way to tier 3 to get a t-34 out which the puma is supposed to counter. its like saying that a ostheer player is getting a panther out to counter an at gun. also i dont believe for a moment anybody will ever lose a supported at gun to a puma.
Wongtp, i dont want flame war, but your math again, and again fail. You spaeak above 235 F difference, between the firts Puma and first T34. This is WRONG too. First, the M3 is not the proper unit, what you count on, a simple-straight first Puma-first T34 tech build price comparison, i think, because i can count on the OKW T1 building 40 F price, for Crucial HEALING, what you can buy only for Manpower, etc etc... It is non sense, i hope we can agree for this.
You count on the starter 50Fuel for the Russian tech price, and not for the starting 40 Fuel for OKW. The right formula here : OKW start with 40 F, he can deploy for this the T2 building, where can build 1. puma, for a RUS price EXACTLY 100 F. So the OKW firts Puma is 100F. The RUS side, can buy T1, for 40F, but RUS starting with 50F, so you have yet 10 after you buy t1, and you need buy your t3, for 120 fuel, and first T34, for 100. IN MY math, this difference between is the first Puma/t34 is EXACTLY 110 FUEL and NOT 235. I hope this help for you understand this a bit.
if you read it right, i merely said fuel needed for the 1st t34, my apologies, i didnt take into account the 10 fuel left over.
there's no flame war here, i made mistakes in my math but the logic still applies. if you are going to nitpick about the math and try to derail the real problem at hand, please stop.
against a sc+sniper strat, the common decision is to rush pumas, ignoring heals because a puma immediately nullifies the advantage soviet has with sniper + sc. it is immune to sniper fire and destroys SC, thats why i used it as a direct comparison. if you want the heals, tech for it after pumas. the minute puma hits the field, it secures your ground and allows you to push up, it takes an additional 120fuel for soviets to bring up a mobile counter.
regardless, what i gave was a common scenario faced against puma rush strats, considering the relative performance of pumas + abilities to gtfo, range/pen and sight and the difficulty in countering it, it needs nerfing.
you are right, if soviet/us gets 25fuel/min, the okw equivalent is 25 * 0.66 = 16.5. okw will then need 4.24mins to save 70 fuel. the equivalent for soviet fuel rate in 4.24mins = approx 106 fuel. my apologies.
still im not ashamed because my point still stands, we are talking about a massive 225 - 105 = 120 fuel difference, care to refute that instead?
Glad to see you are rational. I didn't discuss the teching costs, but i did post something earlier in the thread about it, and it was along those lines: the T3 teching is free for Oberkommando, because it is covered by starting fuel. This means only the first Puma benefits from a "discount" (and a large one, considering how hard the first 40 fuel would be to gather for the faction). Every following Puma costs around 95 fuel (with ammo conversion ON, and this means a lot for a faction that needs Shrecks / G43 upgrades early), therefore only the first Puma is broken because it hits the field sooner than it's counters. I see that more as a feature that gives birth to a strategy (seems cheesy, but we all know how cheesy some soviets strats are, so it wouldn't hurt to see Axis have some in their repertoire as well).
But as i said also, if top players think that the unit is overperforming, a decent nerf could be welcome (decent not being nerfing 3 stats at once, as the unit is one of the core of the faction, and there are no real replacement available).
Imo, pushing the smoke to Vet1, and the current Vet1 to Vet3 would bring the unit in line with balance. I do not find it's AI performances are deserving so much attention honestly. You have to drive it almost point blank to really 'bleed' opponent. I find it rather funny to see Allied players shocked by Puma's AI when the Axis have to face the US AA HT and are being told to l2p.
I not count in the OKW T1, only the T2 what build for the starter 40F, and puma 70F price, what it is EXACTLY 100F in Russian resoucre standard. My English is very bad, sorry for this. The Russian counterpart is starter 50F, 40F T1, 120F T3, 100F T34. This means--->First Puma in Russian standard 100F, first T34 40+120+100-50=210F. The difference between first PUMA, and first T34, is 210F-100F = 110F. So tech build difference is 110F, for first units, after this, the PUMA is the expensiver units(same fuel, bit more MP), so T34 easyer spammable, than the Puma.
My 2 cents as noob player. (So i could be totally wrong with my assumptions and my experience could be too little to be usefull in this argument!)
I don't think it's SO overperforming for the average player. Yes, you give a Puma to Hans and he will rule the world (#PumaMaster, but if you give that unit to me, despite trying my best to micro as best as i can actually do... it just dies so shamefully fast. (To understand how bad i play that unit, i'm pretty sure that at one point, 1 Assault Engineer squad killed my Puma by going to his back and shooting with their SMG)
Beside that there is another problem that you strong players don't take in account (mostly because in 1v1 you see this quite rarely) : the puma is your only way to kill effectly the M3A1 + Sniper\Penal rush. Wich in 2v2 at the level i play, is quite an often strategy. With flamers upgraded it will nuke your raketewerfer and if used well, it will make useless even the Volks with panzerschrek.
So you only have the puma and that goes to my point and idea as a nerf\modification of the unit :
1. Reduce the penetration and possibly the damage of the gun and maybe even a little the life, in order to make it less effective against medium tanks (but still, it's a puma it should be effective even if not that much)
2. Reduce the cost. So basically it wouldn't be "a nerf" but a scale down.
But again, maybe this is only a problem of myself (wich i understand is possible).
But YES it should be quite ineffective against infantry.
If the gun damaged enough, i saw, from small arms fire (rifle and smgs/lmgs) destroyed AT gun, with Attack move too, this is not prove anything. The AT gun is hardcounter on Puma, not the Puma hardcounter on AT gun...
Puma is fine unit, play the OKW "med tank" role in his system, as a bit expensiver T34, who has a bit more AT capability/mobility with good micro, a bit less AI capaility/durability, a bit cheaper faster tech route, but t34 later better/easyer spammable.
In Russian system T34 have 310mp/100F price, the Puma in same ECO system is 320mp/100F. I dont see the problem. RUS have vs Puma mines, Guards, AT gun, AT nade etc. Puma AI ability is simply not enough for can hold the line vs Guards, but a defended AT gun is enough scare away/kill the Puma, and you dont need for this AT gund defense Guards doctrine, enough for this vs PUMA the basic Conscripts, with AT granade, and puma CANT circle strafe the Gun. Puma has escape ability, T34 have STAYING and KILLING ability vs infantry...
Without, or nerfed Puma, i feel OKW would be too vulnerable for SU sniper team cheese, or T34 Spam. I see a lots of time, with current, not nerfed PUMA, in high level replays, Stomped the OKW player, for SU Sniper+Guards strat followed some T34variant. I feel Puma nerf, dont the right direction, if the panther CAN be cost effective vs spammable allied med tanks horde, and can coming on time, plus OKW get some decent anti sniper units, THEN, but just after can we talk Puma nerf, in my opinion...
That's not really how balance works. You don't get a free pass for an overpowered unit because you find that another unit is not very good.
By the way, I don't think the Puma is that overpowered, and the Raketen's only real problem is that it hits the ground too much. OKW also has shrecks on a very tough and cheap basic unit, as well as the best non-turreted tank destroyer in the game. Later on, its Panther is actually pretty solid, and both the Tiger and Jagdtiger rule the battlefield against armor. Tell me again how the OKW has bad AT options.
I think I did not explain my thoughts well enough. The OKW is the only faction which lacks a proper AT gun and has no medium tank. That puts it in a very vulnerable position the moment allied medium tanks arrive. You cant kill off armor with just infantry. And this is a weakness which is compensated by the Puma.
The game between HelpingHans and OMGPop shows the importance of a Puma for the OKW mid game pretty well. At 18th minute you can see how the (heavily supported) Puma trades with an (unsupported) E8. One little mis-micro, and the Puma was gone.
The Puma has to be exceptionally strong to fill in a gap in the lackluster non-infantry midgame AT department of OKW.
Though I admit in terms of the other points being brought up here, Puma could be overperforming. But any demand for “nerf” should take into consideration the things stated above.
Yet it [Puma] still gets owned by the US AA truck in a 1v1 fight. Amazing
It's the other way around, believe me. There are not many ways for an american player to chase and kill a well microed Puma. Bazookas, AT guns, and basically every vehicle and tank (except Jackson) can be avoided or kited to death.
In a competetive game, the Puma should only die to surprises and ambushes: M20 mines, a pre-patch demo charge, a Stuart getting close and using his stun ability, a tank rush from multiple angels and - my personal favourite, since i only knew about it since yesterday - slowing the puma down with smoke rifle nades and then finish it off.
This is a really interesting shoutcast that shows how brutally efficient the Puma can molest even the heaviest tanks: [youtube]http://youtu.be/ZTl_VRKgk8s[/youtube]
I don't know where this sentiment that a Puma can go reliably against medium tanks on its own comes from. The 10 extra range is of course a boon, but it requires micro, without much margin for error.
Which is where smoke comes in, to save the day when this margin is exceeded. Remove smoke or require veterancy for it, and suddenly Puma becomes high risk, high reward unit that it is supposed to be.
On second thought I have to say that I wouldn't recommend a change to smoke. The Puma is a shoot and scoot unit and being able to pop smoke and back off kinda belongs to this role.
I think a penetration decrease is the better way to go. A vehicle in this role should be all about flanking. Right now you can reliably penetrate Allie's medium tanks frontally.
We talk here high level of play, not 2 noobs putting their armor in the barrels range.
Obviously it needs micro DUUUUH.
Is there a point to your post? Or do you just like to piss on people for no reason while adding no contribution to the discussion?
My point was that a Puma rewards players with good micro, as it should. Seems important to the discussion of whether a Puma overperforms or not. It is usually toast if medium tanks manage to close the range, which is what makes micro so important. Which, again, in turn, makes the smoke ability factor into this balance discussion.
Notice how I now will not conclude this post with some derogatory remark, nor try to insult the inteligence of the poster I am replying to. Try it sometimes.
I don't know where this sentiment that a Puma can go reliably against medium tanks on its own comes from. The 10 extra range is of course a boon, but it requires micro, without much margin for error.
Which is where smoke comes in, to save the day when this margin is exceeded. Remove smoke or require veterancy for it, and suddenly Puma becomes high risk, high reward unit that it is supposed to be.
It comes from the fact that the puma comes in so early that by the time it faces medium tanks it has multiple stripes of vets and puma vet is batshit retarded.
Also with smoke, incredible acceleration and great speed, plus not so bad health there is quite a bit of room for error, not to mention a vet 1 puma can 1v1 a medium tank and win if it uses the ability, or cripple an heavy tank for the duration of the fight.
It comes from the fact that the puma comes in so early that by the time it faces medium tanks it has multiple stripes of vets and puma vet is batshit retarded.
Also with smoke, incredible acceleration and great speed, plus not so bad health there is quite a bit of room for error, not to mention a vet 1 puma can 1v1 a medium tank and win if it uses the ability, or cripple an heavy tank for the duration of the fight.
Well, it can't come to the field any later due to how OKW teching works (unless it was moved to the Flak truck for some reason) so either slow down the rate it gets vet at (though I was under the impression this is tied to the unit costs and can't be tweaked easily ) OR reduce vet bonuses OR reduce base stats somehow to make it more difficult to stay in the fight against mediums while vetted.
Smoke at vet1, disabling shot at vet2, actual stat boosts begin at vet3. Would that mitigate the problem? Of course tweak acceleration and speed on top of this if needed.
I think I did not explain my thoughts well enough. The OKW is the only faction which lacks a proper AT gun and has no medium tank. That puts it in a very vulnerable position the moment allied medium tanks arrive. You cant kill off armor with just infantry. And this is a weakness which is compensated by the Puma.
The game between HelpingHans and OMGPop shows the importance of a Puma for the OKW mid game pretty well. At 18th minute you can see how the (heavily supported) Puma trades with an (unsupported) E8. One little mis-micro, and the Puma was gone.
The Puma has to be exceptionally strong to fill in a gap in the lackluster non-infantry midgame AT department of OKW.
Though I admit in terms of the other points being brought up here, Puma could be overperforming. But any demand for “nerf” should take into consideration the things stated above.
I don't get the argument that OKW NEEDS the Puma. It has shrecks on a durable, cheap unit. The Raketen actually does its job if you aren't on a hilly map. The Jagdpanzer is an excellent tank destroyer that can beat IS-2s if supported a bit and shits all over medium tanks that can't flank it (hello shrecks). I never have any problem fighting off medium tanks as OKW unless I've been pushed off the map and denied fuel. The Puma just makes it even easier, properly microed you can need no other vehicle until you break out the KT/Panther/Jagdtiger. Hell, I'm pretty certain OKW actually has the best non-doctrinal midgame AT of all 4 factions. Raketen is not as good as other AT guns, but requires no teching, can garrison and can retreat. Once it's tendency to fire at the ground is fixed it's a fine unit.
I mean, going from playing OKW to US, it's incredible how different they are. US is a faction that has absolutely shit midgame AT. All you have are bazookas which can't pen anything bigger than a StuG and cost fuel to get, AT guns that you need to spend ammo for them to be good (and massively delaying your teching to T4 in the process of getting them), and... that's it. Stuart is only good for its abilities, I'd trade it with the Puma in a heartbeat. Until they get the micro-intensive Jackson, US AT in general is far inferior to OKW's.
I just don't see the problem. OKW is in my opinion the last faction that really needs a unit like the Puma. Doesn't mean it should be removed or anything, but a small nerf wouldn't hurt it overmuch. Just nerf its penetration a bit, it should be a flanking vehicle, yet it can reliably pen the frontal armor of medium tanks that come much later.
Remove the Puma and OKW basically loses it's competitive ability. The Flak Halftrack, while on paper very powerful, tend to perform rather poorly (hitting terrain quite a bit, unable to clear buildings) and it's mobility is a big issue. The walking Stuka is more or less a mid-late game unit, so that leaves only the Puma to deal with early game pressure.
The Medic truck is nearly worthless for early game as only the support gun can be used (dependent on map and only if your opponent is static). The Puma is the only way to harass infantry and force of light vehicles effectively as OKW and I think it's fine at the moment.
Remove the Puma and OKW basically loses it's competitive ability. The Flak Halftrack, while on paper very powerful, tend to perform rather poorly (hitting terrain quite a bit, unable to clear buildings) and it's mobility is a big issue. The walking Stuka is more or less a mid-late game unit, so that leaves only the Puma to deal with early game pressure.
The Medic truck is nearly worthless for early game as only the support gun can be used (dependent on map and only if your opponent is static). The Puma is the only way to harass infantry and force of light vehicles effectively as OKW and I think it's fine at the moment.
I don't think anyone has a problem with its effectiveness vs infantry or light vehicles, it's that it's also an effective counter to tanks.
The Raketenwerfer is a fine unit, i think, especially with vet.
Good reload time, avarage penetration, can retreat/garrisoned(unique both) and with veterancy gain camo, first strike double damage, more range, and reduced reload time make this unit for me on of the best AT gun with VET in the game, without tech cost. For trade, you have a little shorter range, and cone, than other guns, without basic green cover, so you need make sandbags with basic Volks, OR garrisoned. It is balanced, i think.
The OKW flak HT, it is bugged, if he CAN shoot the enemy, not the high terrain-obstacles, would be a perfect unit, but not yet, his ballistic weapon model is bugged, and conjunction with a ridiculous setup/pack up time, really a shit unit, i hope this would be fixed.
The raketen is fine, until it hits the ground 5/10 times and its long aim time lets the enemy vehicles escape.
The OKW AA, with that 3s PACKUP TIME is crap, either remove packup time or give smoke to vet0.
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