The Problem of Axis in Teamgames

This has been how every team game has played out for months. Today, not kidding, 98% searching axis, and to think people say things like that number doesn't mean anything. We all know what the real reason for it is.

You don't need a scientific study to see what's right in front of your face. Anyway, between the extreme lopsidedness of this and the game still constantly freezing/speeding up at the worst times, I think I've had enough.

This often happens because allied players wait for the callins..many times i see matches end because once allies had map control they used that to spam t-34s and shermans in hit and run all over the map...focusing on wehr players especially and avoiding the shreck blob,left to be dealt with infantry-shocks or rifles.Whenever a game finishes in mid stage this is how it usually happens early stock armor spam.3 vs3 and 4 vs 4 ofc.1 vs1 and 2 vs 2 allies supremacy-particularly soviets.

In my opinion one of the main problems in 3v3+ is, that the allies can't use their superior mobility to full capacity. The map is just too crowded in these gamemodes. I also often see allies trying to win the "call-in" game, while this might work in 2v2 or 1v1, it's not gonna cut it in 3v3+. As Austerlitz stated, waiting for call-ins as allies will result in a loss of pressure around midgame, that gives the axis just enough time to recover.

If you want to beat axis late game, there's above average teamwork and coordination needed.

Increase resources are the main reason for disproportions in team games. When we fix or change this large team games should balance themselves out.

Or at least be in a better spot than they are right now.

Good Player who are playing German side can be unbeatable if in Anhilation ;-)

I've noticed this even in 2v2s... despite what allies do, their all round rubbish AT means that they haven't got a hope against late game German armour spam. Against a German player who supports a KT for example, there simply isn't anything you can do.

It's a weird dichotomy in that Germans can easily have the best tanks... and counter enemy tanks the most effectively. whilst the allies have the worse tanks across the board and the worse means to counter them. It's been there since day 1 of CoH2 and it's a disgraceful state of affairs. In 1v1s it might work. But for the rest of us plebs who happen to enjoy the social aspect of the game as well. It often times is just simply frustrating.
I've been through games today where multiple squads have been wiped out by me and my ally but we've still be stomped by axis armour late game.
One particular game we wiped 2 sturmpios in a single engagement. Meant nothing. My teammate was a bit of a blockhead with Soviet industry, but even still. By the end of it we were facing Ostwinds, multiple p4s and a KT with 2 (heavily vetted) Shermans. And we obviously lost.

The effectiveness of tanks against infantry hardly helps. In particular units such as the Tigers. I've seen them absolutely maul AT guns (who just bounce off them) with little damage taken in return. Coupled with the effectiveness of the Stuka in decrewing weapons teams with ease, it's small wonder we're seeing complaints about the effectiveness of medium tanks, which are the only effective counter to heavy armour and even then its more mutually assured destruction then anything.

I've noticed this even in 2v2s... despite what allies do, their all round rubbish AT means that they haven't got a hope against late game German armour spam. Against a German player who supports a KT for example, there simply isn't anything you can do.

It's a weird dichotomy in that Germans can easily have the best tanks... and counter enemy tanks the most effectively. whilst the allies have the worse tanks across the board and the worse means to counter them. It's been there since day 1 of CoH2 and it's a disgraceful state of affairs. In 1v1s it might work. But for the rest of us plebs who happen to enjoy the social aspect of the game as well. It often times is just simply frustrating.
I've been through games today where multiple squads have been wiped out by me and my ally but we've still be stomped by axis armour late game.
One particular game we wiped 2 sturmpios in a single engagement. Meant nothing. My teammate was a bit of a blockhead with Soviet industry, but even still. By the end of it we were facing Ostwinds, multiple p4s and a KT with 2 (heavily vetted) Shermans. And we obviously lost.

The effectiveness of tanks against infantry hardly helps. In particular units such as the Tigers. I've seen them absolutely maul AT guns (who just bounce off them) with little damage taken in return. Coupled with the effectiveness of the Stuka in decrewing weapons teams with ease, it's small wonder we're seeing complaints about the effectiveness of medium tanks, which are the only effective counter to heavy armour and even then its more mutually assured destruction then anything.

Allies have the best AI, so them also having the best AT would make them unbeatable. That you only had 2 Shermans out and the opponents had more than 4 tanks is more on you than them. What were you doing with your fuel? OKW actually has the worst AT in the game. Volks with Shreks die at an appalling rate and take forever to reload, Raketenwerfer has small rage and arc of fire and pathetic HP.

Once again, it is very possible for allies to prevent a KT from hitting the field by utilizing their superior early game to deny resources. Allies who allow the game to go long enough for KT need to realize that they need counters for it prepared. While this is tougher for Americans, the Soviets at least have the ISU152 that out-ranges the KT and the IS-2 which can absorb a lot of damage.

This often happens because allied players wait for the callins..many times i see matches end because once allies had map control they used that to spam t-34s and shermans in hit and run all over the map...focusing on wehr players especially and avoiding the shreck blob,left to be dealt with infantry-shocks or rifles.Whenever a game finishes in mid stage this is how it usually happens early stock armor spam.3 vs3 and 4 vs 4 ofc.1 vs1 and 2 vs 2 allies supremacy-particularly soviets.

T34/76s don't scale very well late game. I make them everytime, but as conscripts are now useless and grens are spammed in each game, the disproportion in ATnades/Faust makes middle tanks a micro intensive nuisance, with 5 o 6 gren squads swarming the map, volks with schrecks, ATguns, etc

Even if the game is going my way, I never do more than 2 T34/76, just for supporting ATguns and occasionally flanking Stukas,and then start saving fuel for the ISU-152

I think the real problem is the maps. Conceptually, Axis are two very defensive factions where as Allies are very mobile and very aggressive. In 1v1's or on some 2v2 maps such as Moscow Outskirts Allies are able to make use of their aggressive and mobile units. However due to all of the chokepoint, cluttered and blobby maps that occupy 3v3, 4v4 and the majority of 2v2 maps, it means that flanking and outmanoeuvring your opponent is impossible so it's all about blobs vs blobs, support weapons verse support weapons, tanks vs tanks over the exact same points.

Axis by design have better defensive infantry (LMG Grens, Obers) better blob control with MG teams, better mortars and artillery, better AT guns and stronger tanks. The strengths of Soviets and Americans can be used in a 1v1 to flank, outmanoeuvre and outplay your opponent, but in the awful blob/camp/chokepoint maps of team games there just simply isn't any potential or possibility for that to happen. There isn't enough skill differentiates in team games, and especially just the unit design is so much easier and forgiving for axis especially in the late game.

For example looking in a non doctrinal call in sense, you've got the SU-85's which are super finesse because of their lack of rotatable turret and with no infantry damage. Jacksons are incredibly fragile and die very easily and also with no infantry damage. One small minor mis-plays and you can lose these dedicated tank destroyers incredibly easily. Especially when you factor is Panzerfausts/AT Grenades penetrate SU-85's and Jacksons essentially 100% of the time, compared to AT Grenades penetrating P4's and Panthers basically 50% of the time.

Axis tanks however you've got Panzer IV's, Panthers. Both are very mobile, very strong, very powerful, have great infantry damage and have Blitzkrieg to keep them alive. Where as what do Jacksons and SU-85's have going for them? Range. That's it, range. There's also speed, except for when the big medium/heavy tanks pop Blitzkrieg and are faster than the allied tanks.

But it's very hard to make use of the range against tanks supported by Shreks or Paks. And because it's team games with so many more people there's always going to be blobs of Shreks or Paks supporting tanks.

It's also impossible for Soviets to support their tanks with AT infantry because it just doesn't exist, and Americans have bazookas which work okay against medium tanks, but as soon as any heavy tanks come in such as a Tiger/Elefant Bazookas are pretty worthless. Not only do they have less damage/penetration than Shreks, but also Axis armour have so much more health and armour.

To allow Allies to be more aggressive and outplay the maps need to be more open, bigger and wider. Maps can't too big though, otherwise retreat timers are too punishing. Maps for team games should be rectangular with bases spawning on the long edges so distance to and from bases isn't that high, but the map is wide enough so there's lots of room to prevent choke point and clutter. The example to look at is Moscow Outskirts, it's a great 2v2 map.

There's so many other little design features that make Allies really hard to play and axis really forgiving. For example the fact that Soviets can not build Howitzer due to the abundance of one click artillery call ins that instantly destroy 600 manpower worth of Howitzers for a small munitions cost, whilst Soviets just have no equivalent.

TL;DR Allies are balanced in 1v1 because of the map design allows for outplays and use of aggressive play style. Due to the choke points, clutter and so many more units in team games, the awful map design of the majority of team game maps needs to be fixed and opened up to stop rewarding camping and blobbing so much, which conceptually favours axis play style compared to Allies.

The only reason why Allies are currently able to win team games is because of how ludicrously overpowered the ISU-152 is.

T34/76s don't scale very well late game. I make them everytime, but as conscripts are now useless and grens are spammed in each game, the disproportion in ATnades/Faust makes middle tanks a micro intensive nuisance, with 5 o 6 gren squads swarming the map, volks with schrecks, ATguns, etc

Even if the game is going my way, I never do more than 2 T34/76, just for supporting ATguns and occasionally flanking Stukas,and then start saving fuel for the ISU-152

When u go t-34 spam its a gambit,u should spam t-34s when u have achieved an early game fuel advantage as the Op stated instead of waiting for call-ins.Spam -once u reach a critical mass of 3..start hit and run all over the map.Don't try to charge the volks blob.This is a very good strategy for allies that can finish the game mid game.Otherwise ISU/IS-2 with jacksons are best bet lategame.The is-2 is a very good tank lategame because its armor is insane.Jacksons are weak under 2.Once u get 2-3 jacksons they become very fearful.

Many games i see allied players not pushing enough even with fuel advantage.They prefer the old fashioned zis-maxim crawl.The american blob overextends itself and takes losses.T-34s get seperated and taken out by paks or volks shrecks.But in games where we had to face shermans and t-34s at a steady rate(later replacing losses with call ins)we were in quite a bit of trouble..as the OKW partners can't keep up in teh armorspam race and will have no armor tillpanther/jagd and ost players are left with pz 4s at a numerical disadvanatge.They rely on close co-operation with the volks blob or pak to survive.Here allied players often don't coordinate.

Many games i see allied players not pushing enough even with fuel advantage.

Because pushing past mid-game with medium tanks can be dangerous.
The lost team will probably have much more manpower income than you, and probably a Tiger/Jadgtiger/King Tiger will appear soon.

I've seen too many comebacks due to a supertank call-in to be cautious and not pushing if I don't have anything to destroy a King Tiger.
And as I said, green spam is very usual right know. A broken engine and your tank is dead.

It's very risky to push with medium tanks when they're 6 green squads roaming the map, supported by paks and volks.

When u go t-34 spam its a gambit,u should spam t-34s when u have achieved an early game fuel advantage as the Op stated instead of waiting for call-ins.Spam -once u reach a critical mass of 3..start hit and run all over the map.Don't try to charge the volks blob.This is a very good strategy for allies that can finish the game mid game.Otherwise ISU/IS-2 with jacksons are best bet lategame.The is-2 is a very good tank lategame because its armor is insane.Jacksons are weak under 2.Once u get 2-3 jacksons they become very fearful.

Many games i see allied players not pushing enough even with fuel advantage.They prefer the old fashioned zis-maxim crawl.The american blob overextends itself and takes losses.T-34s get seperated and taken out by paks or volks shrecks.But in games where we had to face shermans and t-34s at a steady rate(later replacing losses with call ins)we were in quite a bit of trouble..as the OKW partners can't keep up in teh armorspam race and will have no armor tillpanther/jagd and ost players are left with pz 4s at a numerical disadvanatge.They rely on close co-operation with the volks blob or pak to survive.Here allied players often don't coordinate.

lol these guys just don't get it. it requires teamwork to win in 4v4 believe it or not. allies can amass shermans and t-34's and run all over the map with impunity, before axis can get their heavies out. if they micro properly(big problem with allot of these posters, apparently, they can just add to the blob of mediums and just drive circles killing any "super heavies." maxim spam shuts down okw spam, so does elite rifle spam.

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What he said, the game isn't balanced around team games, deal with it.

lol these guys just don't get it. it requires teamwork to win in 4v4 believe it or not. allies can amass shermans and t-34's and run all over the map with impunity, before axis can get their heavies out. if they micro properly(big problem with allot of these posters, apparently, they can just add to the blob of mediums and just drive circles killing any "super heavies." maxim spam shuts down okw spam, so does elite rifle spam.

Surely we don't play the same game...

anyways, pwnage has it right with soviet/US AT tanks. they are clunky, very situational and dont offer much except for a single advantage, range. range is only a big thing only on a speedy unit that is able to spot for itself, which was why su85 was nerfed to its current state. as for jacksons, they are still good with enough infantry support to spot for it.

this is actually good, it balances their advantage to tactics when axis tanks must find ways to flank and allies must find ways to prevent flanks as well as spot for their tanks. it gives a good chance for them to counter tanks effectively, or are effectively countered by tanks.

however, the same rules never apply to german tanks. for instance, pumas, these things have 50 range and also sight range of 50, this means that they can go tackling mediums without the need for infantry support to spot. they are also speedy enough to reverse out of danger. smoke abilities and other get out of jail cards arent helping either.

that is just part of the problem. germans also have their own class of heavy tanks that allies dont and frontal armor just becomes more and more ridiculous each new addition. jagdtiger and KT have 525 and 425 frontal armor respectively with 1280hp. that means conventional weapons and tactics like AT guns, will never work on these things only flanking or plasma cannons can take them out. despite such an immense advantage on durability, they are also decked out with faceraping weapons that can 2-3shot tanks at 85range for the JT, or 2 shot infantry squads for the KT.

the late game discrepancy is huge as compared to the early game advantage that the allies *might* have.

adding on to the problem is the perceived notion that okw/ost suffers early. yet in actual fact, they rarely do. most okw/ost that knows how to deal with soviet cheese or riflemen can comfortably hold the lines to late game where they can bring out uber tanks.

apart from snipers that are generally difficult to counter, okw/ost have a very good chance against scout cars with cheap AT guns/puma rush/early 222 if they teamed up together. apart from M1919 browning lmg spam, there's no other infantry that can combat lmg42 grens/volks/sturms effectively. any weapon team spam can be countered by ost auto cannon mortars, isg and fallshirmjagers popping from the rear and gunning stuff down with 40dps right off at close range.

im just going to stop here, there's just so many things wrong with axis right now.

What he said, the game isn't balanced around team games, deal with it.

That is so much bs. Only 1v1 is balanced? Dude.

Today, not kidding, 98% searching axis, and to think people say things like that number doesn't mean anything.

Yea, it doesn't mean anything with balance. When the Soviet Katyusha was wiping out OKW buildings with one barrage and ISU was taking out elefants. When the Soviets were dominating Axis there were still more Axis players playing CoH2. What you think it's because of balance when it actually means players just like to play as Germans.

That is so much bs. Only 1v1 is balanced? Dude.

I thin the game should be balanced for all modes. I love the game but i have only played 4v4 so far because i think it is fun. To me, balance makes the game even better, so i hate when people say the game is not meant to be balanced for 3v3 and 4v4.

Turtle with 30% of the map into 4x KT and gg.

I've seen too many comebacks due to a supertank call-in to be cautious and not pushing if I don't have anything to destroy a King Tiger.

+1.

I thin the game should be balanced for all modes. I love the game but i have only played 4v4 so far because i think it is fun. To me, balance makes the game even better, so i hate when people say the game is not meant to be balanced for 3v3 and 4v4.

That may be so,but discussion will be more realistic if established norms are taken on board. The game is currently - and historically - balanced on 1 v 1 and 2 v 2.