Allied Medium Tanks Overperforming/too spammable?

Agree with that.
Fuel cost to 140 wouldn't be bad also for ez8.

Rest posts and ridiculous suggestions are general knee jerk reactions.

145 at least as its better than t-34/85.

As for range and pen nerf being knee jerk reactions...nope.Thats exactly what u fear.U currently use these superficial attributes as arguments to keep this unit extinct.Take these 2 away and where will u go?

I agree that the easy 8 and the t-34/85 are probably the best performing tanks ingame atm but I wouldn't go any further than a slight (5-10) fuel increase.

As others mentioned,I think these tanks perform so well because their counterpart the panther is so lackluster in terms of cost efficiency.

The e8 and the t-34/85 could use a slight cost increase to 145 fuel and the panther could use a slight cost decrease to 150 but the largest problem is that call in tanks do not require tech at all.

I think the major issue there, as already stated, is that Werhmacht Panther is weaker than Oberkommando Panther, while still being costlier to reach (tech wise). That means that its allies counterpart, ez8 and t34/85, are getting out of hands.

Probably just mirror Panther's stats across the two axis factions, and reduce a bit the tech costs for Wehrmacht (would also help if other T4 units were brought in line with their allies counterparts, namely Panzerwerfer, and Brummbär).

I think the allied tanks are right where they should be, but Wehr T4 is significantly underperforming, which creates the illusion of imbalance.

Oberkommando seems rather balanced right now, except maybe a few OP abilities or doctrinal units. Still, i would like to know if oberkommando players feel the E8 and T34/85 are too hard to handle. Which would surprise me, as i think it is mostly Wehr players feeling that way.

I think the costs should stay as they are. Axis can hold their fuel easier especially in team games, so it wouldn't be fair if ally tanks would cost as much as axis do. Furthermore axis tanks perform way better.

No it can't stay the same. Some things need to be addressed.
Easy 8 for example is the best medium tank, yet for some reason it's one of the cheapest and doesn't require any tech coming at 9 cp.

Its all in the price.e8 and t-34/85 at 135 and 130 fuel while u have to pay tech plus 175 fuel for a glorified meatshield with a dud gun and a drunk gunner grandiosely dubbed 'panther'.

It seems this thread has pretty much run it's course so mod's feel free to lock it if you wish.

Hopefully Relic will take note of what the communities feelings are.

General consensus seems to be Unit (or at least Tank Call in's) need to be tied to a Specific tech level as well as their CP cost.

Whermacht Mediums: T3
Whermacht Heavies: T4
Okw Mediums: 2 Trucks converted (any 2)
Okw Heavies: 3 Trucks converted.
Soviet Heavies: T1/2+T4
Soviet Mediums T1/2+ T3/T4
USA Mediums: Major Unlock.
USA Heavies (When they get some): LT/Captain + Major unlocked. (you will most likely get these anyway)

That or to increase Medium Tank call in's cost by about 15~ Fuel.

There also seems a call for Both German Panthers to have the same Base stats, with an increase to either their: HP or Rate of fire and/or increase their long range and on the move accuracy. Or be made 10 to 15 Fuel cheaper.

I'm starting to think the main problem is not the price, even though it costs a bit too much to get to T4 for Ostheer.

It's the fact that you have to invest incrementally to tech up (also including pio build time). This is then opportunity cost and adds up to the difference of maybe having one extra pak or Pgren schreck squad on the field (assuming you can afford the munis). People saying that you can stall with T2 units until you get a panther are either being unrealistic or are economic wizards. If you are going call in heavy you can float a bit until you get the CPs because the callin is instant. As Ost you cant float, you need to invest as soon as possible to get to T4 in a timely manner.

Even if you are floating as Soviet or Elite Rifle US you can still buy a unit if required and then wait the extra 90 seconds to get that 300 munis back and get an instant call in. The timings are out of line.

US and OKW also pay incrementally for tech but not to the same extent that Ostheer does, they also don't lose builder time. Soviets lose builder (CE) time but they only build 2 buildings and don't pay for research.

What I mean to say it's harder for Ostheer to tech up because you need to keep investing in Battle Phases or buildings. So you don't have as much opportunity to spend money on units.

As an analogy, if you go to a bank and say 'I will give you 1000 euros in 10 months, or if you prefer, I will give you 100 euros per month for the next 10 months' they would much much prefer to have the money in installments. Paying up front is more valuable and costly.

US and OKW also pay incrementally for tech but not to the same extent that Ostheer does, they also don't lose builder time. Soviets lose builder (CE) time but they only build 2 buildings and don't pay for research.

Actually, USF and OKW tech is more similar to soviet tech, except it works as you have the flexibility as well as possibility to get all tiers over medium length game.

In response to other's assessment of the Panther (as an explanation of USA's medium tank performance). In a typical OKWvUSA (or OKWvSov for that matter), the Allies have had an advantage in the mid-game due to being able to get their medium tank(s) out first. The problem I have with the Panther, is that the it's poor accuracy forces me to be more aggressive with it than I'd like to be. This always ends with it getting flanked and either destroyed or retreated back to my base for repairs. I've caught myself just hanging back with the Panther waiting for my opponent to push with their tanks, hitting them with shreks and raketen, and then chasing it down with my Panther to finish it off. But against patient players or those that play defensively once they've established a mid-game advantage, the Panther ends up being useless.

You forget that T - 34 / 85 and easy eight force you to use a special doctrine while the panther and PzIV are non doctrinal tanks and tho they are very powerful

You forget that T - 34 / 85 and easy eight force you to use a special doctrine while the panther and PzIV are non doctrinal tanks and tho they are very powerful

Who has forgotten that?

There is not an Ost player in the world who is not constantly and painfully aware of this.

But you seem to have forgotten that T34 is of rough equivalence to PIV, and to be blissfully unaware of the universally recognised Ost T4 issues (including Panther).

So, who actually is forgetting what?

Who has forgotten that?

There is not an Ost player in the world who is not constantly and painfully aware of this.

But you seem to have forgotten that T34 is of rough equivalence to PIV, and to be blissfully unaware of the universally recognised Ost T4 issues (including Panther).

So, who actually is forgetting what?

By T34, you mean /76 or /85?

Because neither is rough equivalent of P4, one is considerable inferior with a chance to win, other is considrable superior with a chance to loose.

If anything, P4J is somewhat equivalent to T34/76, hell US sherman is equivalent to T34 with stats and penetration, but both T34s are far from being similar to P4H.

Panther is expensive, but I've never had accuracy issues with it. I have seen it miss rarely, but usually it hits medium and heavy targets. As a matter of fact, I think the only time I see it miss is while it's moving.

No one is "forced" to use any doctrine, you just see players use call in doctrines more because they are easier and more economical to use,they also provide other good units/abilities too.

Just because they are doctrinal units, does not mean it's a 100% use all the time, and should win against everything because it's doctrinal. Doctrinal units should be a choice over their regular counterparts - yes they should rightly be a little stronger as they will come later due to CP's (And some are actually improved versions of regular units), but they should not just be an "IWIN" button. So arguement's that Doctrinal unit's should "always" win are invalid so please don't try that crap.

This board severely lacks an ignore function. Why are all your interventions full of either trolling / flamebait ? I guess people are trying to have a serious discussion here, can't you just go back to children's garden ?

Maybe you stop diffaming me and come up with arguments? I reported you due to flaming and diffaming me here! So I'll do with any other user trying to crash this thread or insult me. If you don't like my opinion it's your problem.


The point I want to make is that the Ostheer player can easily know what will come if the Sovjet player uses Guards or 120mm for example. They can actually prepare for incoming T 34 / 85 and build PaK's, lay mines or build their really good P4. It's off reality if you try to tell me the T34 beats the P4 in a 1 on 1 if both players don't derp around and actually know what they do. So I agree with Katitof here.

By T34, you mean /76 or /85?

Because neither is rough equivalent of P4, one is considerable inferior with a chance to win, other is considrable superior with a chance to loose.

I meant both, infact.

Because you have forgotten to include AI efficacy and cost into the equation, which also carry their own value.
(Also, Ram.)

Thats what balance is. A complex equation of a wide variety of values.

I meant both, infact.

Because you have forgotten to include AI efficacy and cost into the equation, which also carry their own value.
(Also, Ram.)

Thats what balance is. A complex equation of a wide variety of values.

Ram is pretty useless at the moment. And the Pz4 has a lot of anti - infantry capabilities so all in all the Pz 4 is superior to both T 34 76 and T 34 85.